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SHELLEY LUBBEN, FORMER PORN STAR
Earlier today I received permission to repost a portion of an upcoming book by Shelley Lubben, an ex-porn star. For those of you who haven't already heard of Shelley, I think it's time you meet her.
As part of removing the fantasy of porn, I think it's interesting to hear from one of the actresses. Here's what Shelly Wrote:
Women do not enjoy making porn movies.
Many believe the widespread fairytale that women enjoy making porn movies but in reality there are no happy endings for the women of porn. Women do NOT enjoy making porn movies and a closer behind-the-scenes look will show you several reasons why.
In the world of hardcore sex production, an average day on the porn set for a porn actress is a long and tedious process. Women are told to come in at 8 am for makeup but it's only to make certain porn actresses arrive on time to work. Porn stars have a terrible habit of arriving late because they're often hung over from drugs or alcohol from the night before.
After make up, porn actresses usually wait around long hours until it's their turn to do their scene. Some scenes take an hour and some take several hours to film. It really depends if the male actor in the first scene could "perform" or not. It also depends if female actresses have to stop the clock because they can't handle the pain of a hardcore sex scene.
While waiting around for long hours, jaded porn performers are bored and usually end up in the rest rooms with bottles of alcohol and a few lines of speed or outside in their cars for a heroin fix or gathered in the back yard with other actors to smoke marijuana. For me, I usually ended up in the back yard of some lavish mansion in Malibu with a bottle of Jack Daniels in my hand and a group of male porn actors standing nearby offering me hits of marijuana or lines of speed.
Other porn stars agree with me. Jenna Presley says in an interview with porn journalist, Luke Ford, "I think that 90% of the business does drugs or alcohol but maybe 70% have a problem. I include pot as a drug. I know people who come on set stoned and they can't perform. A drug problem to me is when it affects your work life."
To add to the mind-numbing process, women are never able to experience sexual pleasure during the making of a porn movie because of the continuous cutting during sex scenes. In the background the director constantly yells, "cut" and the flow of action is interrupted in order to get a better shot, adjust lighting or to wipe up bodily fluids. Repeatedly pornographers stop the scenes and some times ask actors to "freeze" in position during very hardcore sex acts, which causes great physical and emotional pain for porn actresses.
I speak from personal experience when I say to be in the middle of a hardcore sex act with several actors at the same time and told to "freeze" in position for several minutes while lighting or cameras are adjusted is extremely painful and degrading. It's also very humiliating when scenes are stopped in order to wipe up bodily fluids such as semen, feces and blood.Despite the fact that women do not enjoy making porn movies, they continue to lie to their fans and proudly insist they enjoy making porn movies. Of course they do. They get paid hundreds and thousands of dollars to lie because this is their profession. Porn stars are paid professional liars who know how to "act" and they do it well. In fact, because porn stars spend a great deal time in front of the camera and never step out of character, they usually have more acting abilities than mainstream Hollywood actors.
I used to brag endlessly to fans and pornographers about my extreme "Italian" sex drive and how I loved making porn movies. I would go on and on about how I needed more and more to fulfill my insatiable appetite. I lied 100% of the time to 100% of the people. Lying is the native language of porn stars because they can't afford to tell you the truth. Not only would it ruin the fantasy for their fans but more importantly, it would ruin the amount of their paychecks. Don't believe porn actresses when they proudly proclaim they enjoy making porn movies.
They're ACTING.
Thank you for letting me repost that, Shelley.
I'm in the process of interviewing former models who have posed for me so that I can bring you an inside look directly from girls who's lives I personally affected. Stay tuned...
(you can visit Shelley's MySpace page by clicking here, or visit her website by clicking here)
Sanchez wrote on March 5th 07 at 02:04AM
It is indeed an interesting article, but the problem is that it only discusses the testimonies from back in the old days when there was no Internet, porn was stigmatized much more and the porn industry wasn't self-regulated as much.
Things are different now. XXXchurch people seem to think that the Max Hardcore style female-degrading porn is today's mainstream, but it just isn't true. That's more a niche market. The main stream today is actually amateur porn. For example, there are many amateur webcam sites featuring young/mature girls, and they are all willingly signing up to make money off private shows, all from the comfort of their own room. No pimp or mafia involved, just willing girls having fun making money and performing sexual acts at the same time.
Danni Ashe, who's known as the most downloaded woman in the world, runs her own softcore porn enterprise, and it all started from her own amateur web site featuring her own images. In her biography she testifies that she is a "woman geek with big breasts," she learned HTML on her own to run her own porn site and it was her own idea.
Ironically, XXXchurch has featured Bianca Jordan, a former pornstar performed in major porn films until just a few years ago, and she testified in one of the Dirty Little Secret podcasts that she really didn't see any drug activities around her while she was in the industry. It seems like XXXchurch people have disregarded her existence all together in favor of promoting their own anti-porn propaganda.
"I Feel Myself" web site features amateur women mainly from Australia masturbating in front of camera... for real. I know those women are willingly submitting entries using their own video camera. Again, no pimp, no drug, no mean porn producer involved. Just them having fun creating sexual video art.
So, as you can see, it's quite contrary to what the article seems to describe. Donny, how would you address that?
Things are different now. XXXchurch people seem to think that the Max Hardcore style female-degrading porn is today's mainstream, but it just isn't true. That's more a niche market. The main stream today is actually amateur porn. For example, there are many amateur webcam sites featuring young/mature girls, and they are all willingly signing up to make money off private shows, all from the comfort of their own room. No pimp or mafia involved, just willing girls having fun making money and performing sexual acts at the same time.
Danni Ashe, who's known as the most downloaded woman in the world, runs her own softcore porn enterprise, and it all started from her own amateur web site featuring her own images. In her biography she testifies that she is a "woman geek with big breasts," she learned HTML on her own to run her own porn site and it was her own idea.
Ironically, XXXchurch has featured Bianca Jordan, a former pornstar performed in major porn films until just a few years ago, and she testified in one of the Dirty Little Secret podcasts that she really didn't see any drug activities around her while she was in the industry. It seems like XXXchurch people have disregarded her existence all together in favor of promoting their own anti-porn propaganda.
"I Feel Myself" web site features amateur women mainly from Australia masturbating in front of camera... for real. I know those women are willingly submitting entries using their own video camera. Again, no pimp, no drug, no mean porn producer involved. Just them having fun creating sexual video art.
So, as you can see, it's quite contrary to what the article seems to describe. Donny, how would you address that?
confused wrote on March 5th 07 at 01:06PM
so is there christian porn on this site? i'm confused...
Jeff wrote on March 5th 07 at 07:16PM
In response to Sanchez, I see what he is saying but wether it is hardcore, softcore, forced, or done willingly it is still sin and porn can never be justified. I am struggling with porn addiction myself right now, but I still know that its ALL wrong. Love not lust
downthatroad wrote on March 6th 07 at 07:26AM
Confused,
There is no porn on this site, think of it as the Anti-porn site. This is a place, or haven if you will, for people who have an addiction to porn, and/or are trying to rid themselves of it.
There is no porn on this site, think of it as the Anti-porn site. This is a place, or haven if you will, for people who have an addiction to porn, and/or are trying to rid themselves of it.
Sean wrote on March 7th 07 at 02:57PM
It is interesting the messages that show up on this board.
I have a question for you, Sanchez. Why do you think Anna Nicole Smith married that 80+ year old billionaire? You think she was in love with him? That's right, we agree it was for the money.
Truth is, for those that can make porn with exposing their naked body, regardless of how much fun it is or not, it will be an attractive option- for the reason of greed. It is not that they hate what they do, but my bet is most of them would do something else if it was nearly as profitable. You and I really don't know for sure whether they enjoy it or not- but I can see an obvious reason why they would do it regardless, which makes the proliferation of such sites lacking any meaning whatsoever as to whether they think it is fun or not. Sanchez, you might want to consider the fact that you really don't know how they feel about their work.
I will admit that they probably don't hate it, but even then, golden handcuffs are hard to get out of...
I have a question for you, Sanchez. Why do you think Anna Nicole Smith married that 80+ year old billionaire? You think she was in love with him? That's right, we agree it was for the money.
Truth is, for those that can make porn with exposing their naked body, regardless of how much fun it is or not, it will be an attractive option- for the reason of greed. It is not that they hate what they do, but my bet is most of them would do something else if it was nearly as profitable. You and I really don't know for sure whether they enjoy it or not- but I can see an obvious reason why they would do it regardless, which makes the proliferation of such sites lacking any meaning whatsoever as to whether they think it is fun or not. Sanchez, you might want to consider the fact that you really don't know how they feel about their work.
I will admit that they probably don't hate it, but even then, golden handcuffs are hard to get out of...
Christ wrote on March 8th 07 at 02:50AM
Shelly was a drug addict and freelance prostitute for over six years before her very brief career in adult.
Blaming porn for her troubles is easier (AND MORE PROFITABLE) than accepting responsibility for what a low life loser she was and remains to this day.
Blaming porn for her troubles is easier (AND MORE PROFITABLE) than accepting responsibility for what a low life loser she was and remains to this day.
Sean wrote on March 8th 07 at 09:09PM
To "Christ"-
Who put the bee in your bonnet? Who is blaming porn for any troubles she might have now? In fact, who says she has significant problems now? How is she a low life loser now?
Where on earth are you coming from? It doesn't really seem related to the topic at hand. Explain how your message has anything to do with the post and/or the ensuing comments- and where on earth you are getting your data from.
Who put the bee in your bonnet? Who is blaming porn for any troubles she might have now? In fact, who says she has significant problems now? How is she a low life loser now?
Where on earth are you coming from? It doesn't really seem related to the topic at hand. Explain how your message has anything to do with the post and/or the ensuing comments- and where on earth you are getting your data from.
Rich wrote on March 8th 07 at 09:24PM
To "Sean"
I will tell you what is wrong with "Christ". My guess is he loves his porn and he hates his source of sin being brought into the light and exposed for what it is. Jesus said that people will love darkness more than light because light exposes their sin and brings about conviction. Many lash out because deep inside they are convicted and they hate that. That is just ''the'' truth whether they want to admit it or not.
I will tell you what is wrong with "Christ". My guess is he loves his porn and he hates his source of sin being brought into the light and exposed for what it is. Jesus said that people will love darkness more than light because light exposes their sin and brings about conviction. Many lash out because deep inside they are convicted and they hate that. That is just ''the'' truth whether they want to admit it or not.
Dean wrote on March 10th 07 at 05:04AM
Sanchez makes an important point. Some women do enjoy independently producing sexual material.
I find it hard to believe Luben's claim that no women anywhere have ever enjoyed the process of producing pornography.
While it is true that many porn stars suffer, that fact does not indicate none of them have ever enjoyed a single aspect of what they do.
If we are going to argue that porn is wrong, we need to be wary of making that argument on the basis that women are forced into doing something they don't enjoy. It's better to argue that whether women enjoy it or not, it's wrong for a host of other reasons.
I find it hard to believe Luben's claim that no women anywhere have ever enjoyed the process of producing pornography.
While it is true that many porn stars suffer, that fact does not indicate none of them have ever enjoyed a single aspect of what they do.
If we are going to argue that porn is wrong, we need to be wary of making that argument on the basis that women are forced into doing something they don't enjoy. It's better to argue that whether women enjoy it or not, it's wrong for a host of other reasons.
West wrote on March 11th 07 at 03:23PM
I'm sure there are "some" who do enjoy it; however, it doesn't mean that one day they're not going to wake up and feel like sh*t. Can you tell me if you feel great after you yank one off? I'm willing to bet you feel like you wasted your time. How 'bout after you paid some girl for sex? Was that the best use for $100 and 15 minutes? Would you tell your friends you were doing that? Probably not.
Sanchez, dude...those sites you mentioned....they don't enjoy it.....you don't enjoy it...you just think you do. I've been through all of those friggin' scenarios.....you don't enjoy it for very long. There have been times in the middle of what I was doing, I would realize I hated it and began hating myself while it was happening.
Porn is wrong because it's a lie. That's why it's wrong. It feels great....for a little while...but there's a reason you hide it from everyone.
Sanchez, dude...those sites you mentioned....they don't enjoy it.....you don't enjoy it...you just think you do. I've been through all of those friggin' scenarios.....you don't enjoy it for very long. There have been times in the middle of what I was doing, I would realize I hated it and began hating myself while it was happening.
Porn is wrong because it's a lie. That's why it's wrong. It feels great....for a little while...but there's a reason you hide it from everyone.
Sanchez wrote on March 12th 07 at 07:13AM
I'm constantly amazed to see how Christians all seem to lack in self control regardless of their persistent claim that they've given up their lives to Jesus and their lives are different from their previous life. They say they hate porn so much, yet they need a whole ministry dedicated to their addiction to help themselves. I just don't get this hypocrisy at all. I really don't.
West, your irrational "dude, you are wrong" tone really doesn't help me reconsider my view. I would like you (or anyone for that matter) to address the following facts:
1) I Feel Myself web site
The site is in fact managed by a team of women with some male IT staffs helping them. They officially state in their web site that the participants on their site contribute for varying reasons. Some contribute because they're exhibitionists who revel in the idea of having the camera and the worlds eyes upon them. It intensifies their orgasm and can be the sole source of their fantasies to achieve it. Others contribute because they feel orgasm, though usually intensely private, is worth sharing in this manner if it generates a greater understanding of how to give and receive them. More, still, because they have an uninhibited spirit and are driven by an urge to try new things. All featured girls are amateurs, they are all willingly participating in the site and there is no drug, pimp and alcohol involved in any of the featured films in the site.
2) Danni Ashe
Here is what she has to say about porn in general. It shows you that she's been in total control over what she would like to do with her life, nobody is forcing her to do porn, no pimp, no drugs, and it's actually very professionally operated. (excerpt from one of her interviews):
Q: How did you get into the business?
A: I'd worked for many years as what they call a house dancer, and then I became a men's magazine model, and did a lot of softcore videos. And then I became what's called a feature dancer. Once you have built a name for yourself, have magazine credits and video credits, you can become what's called a feature, and you tour around the country from club to club, city to city, as sort of the headline attraction. You have themed 20-minute shows, and you are the reason people come to the club.
So I did that for awhile, and had a number of really awful experiences. And out of those experiences I thought, "You know what, it's time to move on." ... And I had been using a personal computer for a number of years and running my fan club, and I knew that's what I wanted to do. I loved the computer. I was obsessed with the computer, and I thought, "I want to become a computer programmer."
And in the interim, while I was waiting for a course to start, I ventured onto the Internet, and quickly got into the Usenet newsgroups where I was hearing that my pictures were being posted, and started talking to people. ... I spent several really intense months in the newsgroups, and it was out of those conversations that the idea for Danni's Hard Drive was born. ...
Q: And you were not personally intimidated by the technology of the Internet? What [year]?
A: Late '94, early '95. ... Well, I was very computer literate, and yes I was new to the Internet, but I was so fascinated by it and I was so intrigued, that I was just driven to figure out whatever I needed to figure out. And so every step of the way, if I wanted to do something, I would just pour myself into it until I figured out how to do it.
Q: Your site is considered "softcore," isn't it?
A: It is no hardcore explicit sex, no penetration. I try to stay really focused on nudity and simulated sex. And as a performer, that's where my boundaries were, that's where my comfort level was, and I feel like in the running of my business, I have to stay within my own, you know, comfort zone, within my own boundaries, so that it can always be fun for me.
Another moving term. Pro-woman, you know. I'm very concerned about how I am perceived as a woman and how other women are perceived, especially women who have chosen this industry. I think a lot of times women who choose adult entertainment are up against a lot, something that maybe they don't recognize when they first get started, because it's all very exciting.
And when you first start stripping or you first start modeling, you don't really realize how much negative feedback you're going to have to deal with from the outside world. And I think that's kind of one of my personal goals. I suffered through that for many years, when someone doesn't want to rent you an apartment because you're a stripper, or somebody doesn't want to give you that car loan because you're a stripper, that hurts, and you internalize it. And I think in a lot of ways I want to stand up and say, "Hey, we're worthy of people's respect. We're not bad people, and we don't deserve to be treated that way."
Q: This is not, in your opinion, degrading the models who work for you?
A: Absolutely not, no. I think what I'm doing is helping to reverse some of the sexual repression that we have in this country about nudity and about sex. And I'm not a psychiatrist, but it seems to me, the more you repress your sexual feelings, the more they're going to pop up somewhere else in a really unhealthy way. In our culture, we repress a lot of sex, and we repress our anger, and what you see coming out is a lot of violent pornography. And, you know, it's my theory that that's a direct result of our culture's repression.
Q: I saw, yesterday, tremendously violent pornography being made, directed by a woman. A woman actually was beaten by the other actors. What do you think about that?
A: I think all media, including pornography, is a mirror of what's going on in our collective subconscious. It's something that's surfacing in us, in our culture, otherwise it wouldn't be there. And I think it has a lot to do, as I was saying before, about repressing sexual desires and anger. You repress them both, and all of a sudden it bounces back and in kind of ugly ways.
3) Abby Winters
Abby Winters is an Australian girl running an amateur porn site. Here is what she has to say about her site:
"My inspiration for the site came from how bad existing sites were. I was often frustrated by photographers and web sites that entirely missed the point: They got amateur models and dressed them up like pron stars, totally missing out the appeal of amateur models themselves.
Sometimes, those sites fail, but when they do succeed, they still have all the accruements that makes them downright painful places to visit. Banners on every page, ugly design, confusing navigation, redirections, blind links, popup consoles, selling address lists to other traders, the works. And the models - amateurs dressed as porn stars.
So, I honed my photographic and web skills, and thought I should try to beat them at their own game. This site is the result. It's a pay site, cos as much as I might like them to, these models won't pose for free; and there are heaps of other expenses that I never thought about when I first got into this biz - lawyers, accountants, insurance, hosting, billing, security, tax, staff, equipment, commissions, toys, etc.
Models on this site are real. A very few have had small body mods, but generally they are natural. I choose models between 18 and 24 years old, because that's what I like. There's no big hair, silly scenarios, uncomfortable lingerie, or oiled bodies. They are not Penthouse material, a publication which, along with most of its ilk, came out of the 70's and should have stayed there.
I run this site the way I like it, which is at odds with most other sites. I take a very active role in the site's look and direction, as do members themselves."
----------------------------
My point here is NOT to say that Shelly's story is irrelevant. It is definitely NOT to say that there are bad porn companies out there. I'm just saying that her story is outdated and it applies only to one segment of porn industry. There are good porn companies out there, owned and operated by women and improving women's self image and sexuality. Some porn producers lie, but so do many Christians. (i.e. Can you say Tedd Haggard?) All industries have ups and downs. Tedd Haggard's hypocrisy makes *all* Christians bad? No, I don't think so. Shelly and Donny's argument is like saying working in restaurant business is bad because working at a local McDonald's is not great.
So, please stop generalizing the industry and unnecessarily stigmatizing women in the industry. Your zealous but also hypocritical "dude, porn is bad even though I can't help looking at it" tone isn't going to help us become more educated about the reality of the situation.
West, your irrational "dude, you are wrong" tone really doesn't help me reconsider my view. I would like you (or anyone for that matter) to address the following facts:
1) I Feel Myself web site
The site is in fact managed by a team of women with some male IT staffs helping them. They officially state in their web site that the participants on their site contribute for varying reasons. Some contribute because they're exhibitionists who revel in the idea of having the camera and the worlds eyes upon them. It intensifies their orgasm and can be the sole source of their fantasies to achieve it. Others contribute because they feel orgasm, though usually intensely private, is worth sharing in this manner if it generates a greater understanding of how to give and receive them. More, still, because they have an uninhibited spirit and are driven by an urge to try new things. All featured girls are amateurs, they are all willingly participating in the site and there is no drug, pimp and alcohol involved in any of the featured films in the site.
2) Danni Ashe
Here is what she has to say about porn in general. It shows you that she's been in total control over what she would like to do with her life, nobody is forcing her to do porn, no pimp, no drugs, and it's actually very professionally operated. (excerpt from one of her interviews):
Q: How did you get into the business?
A: I'd worked for many years as what they call a house dancer, and then I became a men's magazine model, and did a lot of softcore videos. And then I became what's called a feature dancer. Once you have built a name for yourself, have magazine credits and video credits, you can become what's called a feature, and you tour around the country from club to club, city to city, as sort of the headline attraction. You have themed 20-minute shows, and you are the reason people come to the club.
So I did that for awhile, and had a number of really awful experiences. And out of those experiences I thought, "You know what, it's time to move on." ... And I had been using a personal computer for a number of years and running my fan club, and I knew that's what I wanted to do. I loved the computer. I was obsessed with the computer, and I thought, "I want to become a computer programmer."
And in the interim, while I was waiting for a course to start, I ventured onto the Internet, and quickly got into the Usenet newsgroups where I was hearing that my pictures were being posted, and started talking to people. ... I spent several really intense months in the newsgroups, and it was out of those conversations that the idea for Danni's Hard Drive was born. ...
Q: And you were not personally intimidated by the technology of the Internet? What [year]?
A: Late '94, early '95. ... Well, I was very computer literate, and yes I was new to the Internet, but I was so fascinated by it and I was so intrigued, that I was just driven to figure out whatever I needed to figure out. And so every step of the way, if I wanted to do something, I would just pour myself into it until I figured out how to do it.
Q: Your site is considered "softcore," isn't it?
A: It is no hardcore explicit sex, no penetration. I try to stay really focused on nudity and simulated sex. And as a performer, that's where my boundaries were, that's where my comfort level was, and I feel like in the running of my business, I have to stay within my own, you know, comfort zone, within my own boundaries, so that it can always be fun for me.
Another moving term. Pro-woman, you know. I'm very concerned about how I am perceived as a woman and how other women are perceived, especially women who have chosen this industry. I think a lot of times women who choose adult entertainment are up against a lot, something that maybe they don't recognize when they first get started, because it's all very exciting.
And when you first start stripping or you first start modeling, you don't really realize how much negative feedback you're going to have to deal with from the outside world. And I think that's kind of one of my personal goals. I suffered through that for many years, when someone doesn't want to rent you an apartment because you're a stripper, or somebody doesn't want to give you that car loan because you're a stripper, that hurts, and you internalize it. And I think in a lot of ways I want to stand up and say, "Hey, we're worthy of people's respect. We're not bad people, and we don't deserve to be treated that way."
Q: This is not, in your opinion, degrading the models who work for you?
A: Absolutely not, no. I think what I'm doing is helping to reverse some of the sexual repression that we have in this country about nudity and about sex. And I'm not a psychiatrist, but it seems to me, the more you repress your sexual feelings, the more they're going to pop up somewhere else in a really unhealthy way. In our culture, we repress a lot of sex, and we repress our anger, and what you see coming out is a lot of violent pornography. And, you know, it's my theory that that's a direct result of our culture's repression.
Q: I saw, yesterday, tremendously violent pornography being made, directed by a woman. A woman actually was beaten by the other actors. What do you think about that?
A: I think all media, including pornography, is a mirror of what's going on in our collective subconscious. It's something that's surfacing in us, in our culture, otherwise it wouldn't be there. And I think it has a lot to do, as I was saying before, about repressing sexual desires and anger. You repress them both, and all of a sudden it bounces back and in kind of ugly ways.
3) Abby Winters
Abby Winters is an Australian girl running an amateur porn site. Here is what she has to say about her site:
"My inspiration for the site came from how bad existing sites were. I was often frustrated by photographers and web sites that entirely missed the point: They got amateur models and dressed them up like pron stars, totally missing out the appeal of amateur models themselves.
Sometimes, those sites fail, but when they do succeed, they still have all the accruements that makes them downright painful places to visit. Banners on every page, ugly design, confusing navigation, redirections, blind links, popup consoles, selling address lists to other traders, the works. And the models - amateurs dressed as porn stars.
So, I honed my photographic and web skills, and thought I should try to beat them at their own game. This site is the result. It's a pay site, cos as much as I might like them to, these models won't pose for free; and there are heaps of other expenses that I never thought about when I first got into this biz - lawyers, accountants, insurance, hosting, billing, security, tax, staff, equipment, commissions, toys, etc.
Models on this site are real. A very few have had small body mods, but generally they are natural. I choose models between 18 and 24 years old, because that's what I like. There's no big hair, silly scenarios, uncomfortable lingerie, or oiled bodies. They are not Penthouse material, a publication which, along with most of its ilk, came out of the 70's and should have stayed there.
I run this site the way I like it, which is at odds with most other sites. I take a very active role in the site's look and direction, as do members themselves."
----------------------------
My point here is NOT to say that Shelly's story is irrelevant. It is definitely NOT to say that there are bad porn companies out there. I'm just saying that her story is outdated and it applies only to one segment of porn industry. There are good porn companies out there, owned and operated by women and improving women's self image and sexuality. Some porn producers lie, but so do many Christians. (i.e. Can you say Tedd Haggard?) All industries have ups and downs. Tedd Haggard's hypocrisy makes *all* Christians bad? No, I don't think so. Shelly and Donny's argument is like saying working in restaurant business is bad because working at a local McDonald's is not great.
So, please stop generalizing the industry and unnecessarily stigmatizing women in the industry. Your zealous but also hypocritical "dude, porn is bad even though I can't help looking at it" tone isn't going to help us become more educated about the reality of the situation.
Dean wrote on March 12th 07 at 02:42PM
I'll say it again.
Sanchez makes a very important point.
Generalizing about what must be the experience of all women in the porn industry isn't really very helpful. I'm sure there are some who enjoy what they do.
I don't see what the problem is with granting that point.
Whether they enjoy it or not doesn't determine the morality or immorality of making or consuming porn, so I don't see how their subjective experience is all that relevant.
Sanchez makes a very important point.
Generalizing about what must be the experience of all women in the porn industry isn't really very helpful. I'm sure there are some who enjoy what they do.
I don't see what the problem is with granting that point.
Whether they enjoy it or not doesn't determine the morality or immorality of making or consuming porn, so I don't see how their subjective experience is all that relevant.
Sean wrote on March 14th 07 at 12:01AM
Sanchez, you didn't respond to my post. You really think they enjoy posing? It is hard to say how much they enjoy it, considering how lucrative it is to pose nude. Please respond to my previous post.
Besides, I would think Donny, if anyone, would know the effects it has on models who do shoots in the nude, seeing as he worked in porn. Honestly, I think he knows better than you. Tell me why I should think otherwise. Did you work in the porn producing business?
Besides, I would think Donny, if anyone, would know the effects it has on models who do shoots in the nude, seeing as he worked in porn. Honestly, I think he knows better than you. Tell me why I should think otherwise. Did you work in the porn producing business?
imastupidhead wrote on March 16th 07 at 12:26AM
I believe everyone has a point. however, point doesnt do anything without any action. i believe there are people that "volutarily" enter porn business but on the other sides Shelly Lubben story is not a fairy tales i listen before i go to bed tonight. its real and someone really got hurt and need help. if any of one us know who can i help today let us try our best to help them. let alone those that "seems" dont want our help or we can say "voluntarily" enter the business. i believe that God will send someone else for them. If you dont believe in God, at least i know there are people that have heart to help them anyway. Put a point or discussing any point here, will not change anyone lives other than piling up bytes in this website. only stupidhead people like me do that.
Matt wrote on March 25th 07 at 03:51AM
Sanchez,
I want to address what you had to say.
First of all, you bring up some thought provoking points, which I read as:
- Certain types of porn are degrading to women and others are not
- Women are willing participants in certain types of porn
- Those "certain types" of porn make up a very large portion of the porn out there
You also throw in a challenging side point:
- Christians, while speaking so strongly against porn out in the open, are very much struggling to practice what they preach and oftentimes they fail to do so
I'm going to try and address those issues (not necessarily in that order). If I'm wrong in my assessment of what you're saying please tell me, I want to address what you actually said.
It seems that you've heard (or imply that) Christians say that porn is all bad because it is all unhealthy and degrading for the women to participate in. We often bring in drugs, abuse and other crazy stuff to prove our point.
But those proofs do not apply to every (and they may not even apply to most) situation(s). I think that's a valid criticism that you're getting at.
As kind of a side note, I appreciate that you do believe that there is some point at which women are degraded in the making of porn. I'm encouraged to see that you are really taking the women into account.
However, I believe that all porn is bad...an evil regardless of whether the women are or are not being "degraded." This is because I believe that in all cases of pornography the women are in fact being degraded whether or not it is readily noticeable in their lives.
I think that way because of my understanding of how women work and thus how they are created by God.
For instance, over and over again in the Bible it is written that God desires for husbands to love their wives. This is expressed best, I feel, in Ephesians 5. Notice that you don't see that call for wives to love their husbands. I feel that this reflects something in the way that women in particular work. It reflects something of their deepest needs and desires.
It leads me to believe that women deeply want to be loved and to feel like they are loved...to feel like they're worth something and to be valued by someone.
My point is that a woman's most basic desire is not for sex sex and more sex...or even for sexual pleasure through masturbation and other sexual acts. A woman just wants to be treasured. Not even necessarily by a husband but by SOMEONE.
So why does a woman turn to do the kind of porn that you are describing if that's not her basic desire?
Because she's searching for value, for people who really want HER. And judging by the amount of porn related cash flow, she figures that she can find plenty of them.
The problem is that all she finds are people who really WANT her. And judging by the amount of porn related cash flow, she finds plenty of them.
So it all backfires on her. Searching for people who value her, she finds that when she's not doing something sexually related that no one finds her really all that desirable. Nothing special about her...just about what she does. This spiral of rejection trains her to think that she is little more than a sex toy. As if that's all she's good for.
I see this all around our world, and I think you hit on this point in section 1) of your second post. I see women dressing more and more provocatively and just screaming with their bodies "look at ME!" But people just LOOK at her. And so she settles for what she can get (people LOOKING at her) and just goes with it. What else is she supposed to do? Maybe some way, some day, if she widens her nets enough (dresses provocatively enough, sleeps with enough guys, does the right sex acts, does porn), she'll get someone to really care for HER.
How does that not degrade a woman?
On another line of argument, consider that God created sexuality for one primary purpose: to unify a man and a woman (Genesis 2.24). Of course, our sexuality is a great source of pleasure for us and you can thank God for that. I suppose he wanted us to know that, as it is a pleasure to "unify" our bodies, it is also a pleasure to unify the rest of our being, which is what the sexual act does (1 Corinthians 6).
If sexuality is meant for the unification of two people, how is it a good idea to broadcast people doing sexual acts to many people? Or for someone to involve just themselves in a sexual act? Or for them to involve any more than one other person?
Our sexuality is given to us for a purpose: to unite a man with a woman and a woman with a man and to experience physically the pleasure that comes from the uniting of two whole people in relationship to each other.
So when a woman acts sexually on a camera, she takes away so much of the sexuality's significance to herself...she cheapens her sexuality in her own mind...so much.
Another way of looking at it is that the full significance of her own sexuality is taken from her.
How does that not degrade a woman?
What my argument boils down to, I guess, is that our (in this specific case we're talking about women, although I don't think it would make much of a difference for this paragraph if we were talking about a man) sexuality is so often used to fulfill needs and desires that it just can't. And when it is used as if it could, it hurts people...it degrades them.
And you may not even be able to tell.
I want to note here that this is a real reason to come alongside these women involved in either professional or amateur porn and help them and love them, not to stigmatize them and reject them further. Jesus told us to help the hurting. That's what xxxchurch is doing.
Sanchez, I appreciate that you looked up all of those sources for the purpose of making your argument. It's good that you did your research. But I've just got to say about your sources, they seemed like advertisements to me. Especially 3). Advertisements are always spun in one way or another, they never tell you the downsides of what they're selling. So you really can't trust them.
And to address the 4th question and answer in 2)...Christians are often seen as promoting the repression of human sexuality. But Christianity does no such thing. Rather than want our sexuality to repressed, God wants our sexuality to be let loose to its fullest potential. And he tells us specifically that the only way that that's going to happen is within a lifetime marital commitment between a man and a woman.
He should know, he designed it.
The point is, God and Christianity do not try to repress human sexuality...in fact, just the opposite.
Although, as you bring up, sometimes it doesn't seem like that, because many professing Christians and any genuine Christians have a deep struggle with porn. Why would we struggle with doing what Jesus want if we really believe that he knows what's best and he is only asking us to do that?
The reason for this, is that while genuine Christians have given up our lives to Jesus and are in fact united with him (notice the word united again...and check out Ephesians 5 again), we still have to deal with the fact that we, at this point, still have sinful bodies that want to do what God does not want us to. This has a lot to do with some deeper theology that I don't think it would be a good idea to go into, but Romans 7 and 8 do a good job of talking about it.
But to get back on track we are unified with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. This union is similar to the marriage union of two people except this is us and Christ.
And what do you do with a marriage relationship? You develop it and deepen it in any way at your disposal out of love for your spouse and out of a realization of your spouses' love for you. (And Christ so completely loves the Christian).
That means that Christians MUST get away from porn out of a response to God's love...hence there are ministries to help them...hence there's xxxchurch...which God uses to help Christians out of porn addictions. We must remember that God is the one who changes the hearts of Christians through his Spirit. A ministry would be useless if he did not use it. And God doesn't often change us instantly through his Spirit. He does it over time, working with us humans who are not as quick as he is. Over time he works with us to free us. It's really a beautiful partnership.
I would hope that you don't think all Christians (especially those who go to xxxchurch) look at porn with enjoyment even though they say they hate it. While that may occur, there are plenty of exceptions.
I know because I am a Christian who claims freedom from porn and yet who is working with God to free myself even more. I do hate porn (not the girls who do it or anyone involved, but the evil that porn represents) and I don't look at it.
I guess I'm done, except I want to say, Sanchez, that I hope you one day realize how deep Jesus' love is for you and that you respond to it. Cause that's really what this is all about.
Let me know what you think.
Matt
PS If anyone...especially a woman...differs in their opinion of what goes on in the soul of a woman...please speak up. I'd like to get it right if it's not already.
I want to address what you had to say.
First of all, you bring up some thought provoking points, which I read as:
- Certain types of porn are degrading to women and others are not
- Women are willing participants in certain types of porn
- Those "certain types" of porn make up a very large portion of the porn out there
You also throw in a challenging side point:
- Christians, while speaking so strongly against porn out in the open, are very much struggling to practice what they preach and oftentimes they fail to do so
I'm going to try and address those issues (not necessarily in that order). If I'm wrong in my assessment of what you're saying please tell me, I want to address what you actually said.
It seems that you've heard (or imply that) Christians say that porn is all bad because it is all unhealthy and degrading for the women to participate in. We often bring in drugs, abuse and other crazy stuff to prove our point.
But those proofs do not apply to every (and they may not even apply to most) situation(s). I think that's a valid criticism that you're getting at.
As kind of a side note, I appreciate that you do believe that there is some point at which women are degraded in the making of porn. I'm encouraged to see that you are really taking the women into account.
However, I believe that all porn is bad...an evil regardless of whether the women are or are not being "degraded." This is because I believe that in all cases of pornography the women are in fact being degraded whether or not it is readily noticeable in their lives.
I think that way because of my understanding of how women work and thus how they are created by God.
For instance, over and over again in the Bible it is written that God desires for husbands to love their wives. This is expressed best, I feel, in Ephesians 5. Notice that you don't see that call for wives to love their husbands. I feel that this reflects something in the way that women in particular work. It reflects something of their deepest needs and desires.
It leads me to believe that women deeply want to be loved and to feel like they are loved...to feel like they're worth something and to be valued by someone.
My point is that a woman's most basic desire is not for sex sex and more sex...or even for sexual pleasure through masturbation and other sexual acts. A woman just wants to be treasured. Not even necessarily by a husband but by SOMEONE.
So why does a woman turn to do the kind of porn that you are describing if that's not her basic desire?
Because she's searching for value, for people who really want HER. And judging by the amount of porn related cash flow, she figures that she can find plenty of them.
The problem is that all she finds are people who really WANT her. And judging by the amount of porn related cash flow, she finds plenty of them.
So it all backfires on her. Searching for people who value her, she finds that when she's not doing something sexually related that no one finds her really all that desirable. Nothing special about her...just about what she does. This spiral of rejection trains her to think that she is little more than a sex toy. As if that's all she's good for.
I see this all around our world, and I think you hit on this point in section 1) of your second post. I see women dressing more and more provocatively and just screaming with their bodies "look at ME!" But people just LOOK at her. And so she settles for what she can get (people LOOKING at her) and just goes with it. What else is she supposed to do? Maybe some way, some day, if she widens her nets enough (dresses provocatively enough, sleeps with enough guys, does the right sex acts, does porn), she'll get someone to really care for HER.
How does that not degrade a woman?
On another line of argument, consider that God created sexuality for one primary purpose: to unify a man and a woman (Genesis 2.24). Of course, our sexuality is a great source of pleasure for us and you can thank God for that. I suppose he wanted us to know that, as it is a pleasure to "unify" our bodies, it is also a pleasure to unify the rest of our being, which is what the sexual act does (1 Corinthians 6).
If sexuality is meant for the unification of two people, how is it a good idea to broadcast people doing sexual acts to many people? Or for someone to involve just themselves in a sexual act? Or for them to involve any more than one other person?
Our sexuality is given to us for a purpose: to unite a man with a woman and a woman with a man and to experience physically the pleasure that comes from the uniting of two whole people in relationship to each other.
So when a woman acts sexually on a camera, she takes away so much of the sexuality's significance to herself...she cheapens her sexuality in her own mind...so much.
Another way of looking at it is that the full significance of her own sexuality is taken from her.
How does that not degrade a woman?
What my argument boils down to, I guess, is that our (in this specific case we're talking about women, although I don't think it would make much of a difference for this paragraph if we were talking about a man) sexuality is so often used to fulfill needs and desires that it just can't. And when it is used as if it could, it hurts people...it degrades them.
And you may not even be able to tell.
I want to note here that this is a real reason to come alongside these women involved in either professional or amateur porn and help them and love them, not to stigmatize them and reject them further. Jesus told us to help the hurting. That's what xxxchurch is doing.
Sanchez, I appreciate that you looked up all of those sources for the purpose of making your argument. It's good that you did your research. But I've just got to say about your sources, they seemed like advertisements to me. Especially 3). Advertisements are always spun in one way or another, they never tell you the downsides of what they're selling. So you really can't trust them.
And to address the 4th question and answer in 2)...Christians are often seen as promoting the repression of human sexuality. But Christianity does no such thing. Rather than want our sexuality to repressed, God wants our sexuality to be let loose to its fullest potential. And he tells us specifically that the only way that that's going to happen is within a lifetime marital commitment between a man and a woman.
He should know, he designed it.
The point is, God and Christianity do not try to repress human sexuality...in fact, just the opposite.
Although, as you bring up, sometimes it doesn't seem like that, because many professing Christians and any genuine Christians have a deep struggle with porn. Why would we struggle with doing what Jesus want if we really believe that he knows what's best and he is only asking us to do that?
The reason for this, is that while genuine Christians have given up our lives to Jesus and are in fact united with him (notice the word united again...and check out Ephesians 5 again), we still have to deal with the fact that we, at this point, still have sinful bodies that want to do what God does not want us to. This has a lot to do with some deeper theology that I don't think it would be a good idea to go into, but Romans 7 and 8 do a good job of talking about it.
But to get back on track we are unified with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. This union is similar to the marriage union of two people except this is us and Christ.
And what do you do with a marriage relationship? You develop it and deepen it in any way at your disposal out of love for your spouse and out of a realization of your spouses' love for you. (And Christ so completely loves the Christian).
That means that Christians MUST get away from porn out of a response to God's love...hence there are ministries to help them...hence there's xxxchurch...which God uses to help Christians out of porn addictions. We must remember that God is the one who changes the hearts of Christians through his Spirit. A ministry would be useless if he did not use it. And God doesn't often change us instantly through his Spirit. He does it over time, working with us humans who are not as quick as he is. Over time he works with us to free us. It's really a beautiful partnership.
I would hope that you don't think all Christians (especially those who go to xxxchurch) look at porn with enjoyment even though they say they hate it. While that may occur, there are plenty of exceptions.
I know because I am a Christian who claims freedom from porn and yet who is working with God to free myself even more. I do hate porn (not the girls who do it or anyone involved, but the evil that porn represents) and I don't look at it.
I guess I'm done, except I want to say, Sanchez, that I hope you one day realize how deep Jesus' love is for you and that you respond to it. Cause that's really what this is all about.
Let me know what you think.
Matt
PS If anyone...especially a woman...differs in their opinion of what goes on in the soul of a woman...please speak up. I'd like to get it right if it's not already.
Majical wrote on April 9th 07 at 06:45PM
Matt,
I am a woman and you are right on! Of course I can only speak for myself but we (women) are guilty of using our bodies to try to be valued by men. Which does back fire when it only makes us desired and not valued.
A few years ago, I became an internet "model" so to speak. Nothing hardcore or even nude but sensual and sexual in nature. I took all my own photos and posted them myself on amature sites. I never made any money off of it but I did take suggestions on outfits and poses. I did also private chat and self-pleasure and even on the phone (no doubt thousands of times with hundreds of men).
At first, it felt good to recieve so many compliments from men making comments. I was very depressed in life and thought that the positive feedback was empowering. I was mistaken.
Eventually, it led me to meetings for real and engaging in things and going places I never should have gone. Too personal to post.
I thought I was some kind of sex fiend. I thought I was enjoying every minute of it and that men just LOVED ME. No, they just loved what I would DO FOR THEM.
I had several offers to make porn movies for real and did seriously consider it. I thank God for my having enough morals not to let me push it that far. It went far enough!
Now, I find it difficult to trust men and people in general.
Now, I find it difficult to even find pleasure in sex, even with the man I love.
I know my husband loves me but I question everything with him and he doesn't deserve that.
It has been a few years now and I think back to the things I did, and I feel sick. I feel ashamed. I especially feel degraded even though that thought would never have entered my mind at the time. It is depressing.
I am scared every day that someone from work or in my family will come across a photo of me and I don't know how that will effect my life but I know it can't possibly be good - nude or not.
Now, when I do see porn, I also just see past the sexuality of it and only think about what that woman must be feeling. Pain. Sorrow. Shame. Perhaps not at the time. Perhaps not even now. Certainly, some day. If she doesn't, she is a rare bird.
When it comes down to it, we (women) just want to be loved, completely, to the depth of our being, to our souls. By one man. And, we just want to love you back, completely, to your souls.
As it should be.
Sincerely,
Majical
I am a woman and you are right on! Of course I can only speak for myself but we (women) are guilty of using our bodies to try to be valued by men. Which does back fire when it only makes us desired and not valued.
A few years ago, I became an internet "model" so to speak. Nothing hardcore or even nude but sensual and sexual in nature. I took all my own photos and posted them myself on amature sites. I never made any money off of it but I did take suggestions on outfits and poses. I did also private chat and self-pleasure and even on the phone (no doubt thousands of times with hundreds of men).
At first, it felt good to recieve so many compliments from men making comments. I was very depressed in life and thought that the positive feedback was empowering. I was mistaken.
Eventually, it led me to meetings for real and engaging in things and going places I never should have gone. Too personal to post.
I thought I was some kind of sex fiend. I thought I was enjoying every minute of it and that men just LOVED ME. No, they just loved what I would DO FOR THEM.
I had several offers to make porn movies for real and did seriously consider it. I thank God for my having enough morals not to let me push it that far. It went far enough!
Now, I find it difficult to trust men and people in general.
Now, I find it difficult to even find pleasure in sex, even with the man I love.
I know my husband loves me but I question everything with him and he doesn't deserve that.
It has been a few years now and I think back to the things I did, and I feel sick. I feel ashamed. I especially feel degraded even though that thought would never have entered my mind at the time. It is depressing.
I am scared every day that someone from work or in my family will come across a photo of me and I don't know how that will effect my life but I know it can't possibly be good - nude or not.
Now, when I do see porn, I also just see past the sexuality of it and only think about what that woman must be feeling. Pain. Sorrow. Shame. Perhaps not at the time. Perhaps not even now. Certainly, some day. If she doesn't, she is a rare bird.
When it comes down to it, we (women) just want to be loved, completely, to the depth of our being, to our souls. By one man. And, we just want to love you back, completely, to your souls.
As it should be.
Sincerely,
Majical
breefer wrote on April 14th 07 at 11:43AM
majical,
thank you for your honesty about really what women want and deep down it is not porn, amateur or otherwise.maybe it makes them money, but it will always be degrading even if they dont acknowledge that now.
bless you
thank you for your honesty about really what women want and deep down it is not porn, amateur or otherwise.maybe it makes them money, but it will always be degrading even if they dont acknowledge that now.
bless you
sean hendrickson wrote on April 21st 07 at 08:21PM
Hi Shelly,my name is sean & i agree 100% with u & the views expressed by xxx church,God is love his love changed my life,having done things in the early 90's in l.a.to support my i.v.speed addiction,under a diffrent name,old things are passed away behold all things are become new,God bless,pce i'm out. -Sean
