JOHN'S CONFESSION

Great job Brandon! I know that feeling that you refer to of not forgetting those moments when you know that you know that you know God showed up!

Hey guys, I need some hard core prayer...and maybe a little advice. I've been addicted to porn since I was 10. It has lead to some crazy thoughts, and even some homosexual tendencies. I hate that my thoughts have gone here, and I am not, nor do I want to be gay. I know we serve a powerful God, who can do ANYTHING. Please join me in prayer, and if you have any advice...hit me back! Later guys, and until then...one love, one God, one way...peace!

Joel.
I know what you feel and what you are talking about.
i am struggling with the same problem but i semi different ways.
i dont know if i have advice but i wouldnt mind talking to you and joining you in prayer.
G.I.L!

Joel,

Please do not believe this crap about how you should feel ashamed about your "addiction." There is nothing wrong with what you are doing! This site is a fringe of christianity who is posing as mainstream and does not represent what true christianity is.

Also, on the topic on not wanting to be gay remember that 10% of every animal population is gay and it is a very natural life, regardless or not if you reproduce (with almost 7 billion people living on this earth, why the hell would you anyway.) And remember that just because you had a homosexual thought, that doesn't make you homosexual.

and to Carlos,

calling masturbation a "problem" will send people spiraling down in depression, much like this site. If somebody wants to quit, its better to be neutral and find an alternative (masturbation releases endorphins much like exercise, food, and a more extreme alternative, self-mutilation, which I do NOT suggest in any way or form.) it is possible to give up masturbation without religion, I have gone 5 1/2 months really just to see how long I could go.
A few years ago I believed the crap on this website about how masturbation is a "deadly sin" that needs to be stopped now because if I don't my mom will die and god will hate me and It was nearly impossible to go 2 days without masturbation, and right after I masturbated I would feel like crap because I believed it was a very bad thing.

It's all in your head. Don't let this site get to you.

Carlos
Thanks for joining me in prayer man! What's going down with you? How can I pray for you? Hit me back!
Noodley
I don't know what people have told you bout God and even masturbation...but I feel like they've said the wrong things to you. This website is a great place for those who really need to down load can. It's not for everyone. I'd like to know how I can pray for you, and if you need to talk anytime...I'm here man.
God bless all!

Hey Guys! I've enjoyed reading your comments here today. My accountability partners are far away right now and I need some encouragement.

It's definitely a tough battle, porn and masturbation. What gets me is the setback after each time I fall. I'll be going good with the Lord and all and then I mess up and it takes several days to get back to where I was. It makes me frustrated and many times I just do it over again.

There are also other triggers besides lust that can cause you to look for an outlet. For example, my mom is really sick and seeing her in pain is tough so I look for an outlet. I'm not trying to make excuses, I know that we are no longer slaves to sin, but it's still tough.

Men, I'd appreciate your prayers. Thanks for your honesty and blessings to you who are struggling and/or doing well. Remember guys, you're not alone in this battle.

Love,

Greg

Hi everyone i'm pretty new here but not exactly new to porn and masturbation. I've dealt with both addictions for a long time and i've told my dad and we've gone to a therapist who has helped but from time to time i still get back to it, i feel horrible afterwards and it puts a damper on my whole week if anyone could pray for me thatd be great and/or any advice... thanks.

Hey guys its Pyro. I have been dealing with the same thing that all of u hav been dealin with porn and masturbation. i hav finally decide 2 quit b/c it is messin up my relationship w/ God. I am going 2 b a youth minister so i hav 2 get this right. Just pray 4 me and i will pray 4 all of u. most definitely the non believers.

To In his noodley appendages

Just think if we didnt hav Jesus Christ 2 die 4 us it wouldnt matter if u were good or bad. every1 has sin and every1 needs Jesus 2 hav a relationship w/ God. So if Jesus would hav never died 4 u and me then it wouldnt matter if we looked @ porn or killed ppl or anything else. It would matter if we chose 2 b kind or mean. w/o Jesus there wouldnt b a point 2 life. No goal no nothing. We ( the 1s who actually believe in God) choose 2 stop lookin @ porn and masturbating b/c we love God and want 2 live our lives for Him. it is ur choice 2 not live 4 God and for that i pity u and will pray 4 u that u might actually c the truth through ur blindness.

Okay guys I have this theory and I want to know what everyone else thinks! The only reason why masturbation is a sin is because it causes sinful thoughts or lust right? Well i have read many books and heard many pastors say that if we can learn how to masturbate without those things then it is simply a stress reliever. By doing this then we are removing the sin out of this act. Why would a loving God put such a strong sexual drive in men and then forbid them to release it.

First, the reason we have a sex drive in the first place is to reproduce. Second, everything not done for the Glory of God is sin, so ask yourself after you've masturbated without thinking about anything (which will take quite a while) if it was for the Glory of God. Every time I have done this, the answer has been "of course not, it was for my own selfishness". Remember, the heart of hearts is evil. It would not be so if God didn't intend it to happen that way, and why did he intend it to happen that way? Well to Glorify himself through purifying you of course. He will not throw away the broken reed, he will make it into a flute and play beautiful music.

okay but there are lots of things that dont give glory to God that arent sins. If we arent lusting or fanticizing than masturbation is not a sin. I know this because I do it.

If you would kindly provide an example, and I'll further study this in scripture.

The first scripture I have found on this subject is this: Corinthians 10:31 "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." Some may say it's out of context, in my Bible, it starts a new paragraph and is followed by verses talking about offending others. The verse quoted above however, is speaking about the verses proceeding it, not following. The verses proceeding it speak of eating food that was sacrificed to idols, and he ends with saying "If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?" So this is obviously a biblical commandment, it blatantly states "Do everything for the glory of God." So, can you masturbate for the glory of God?

im also having problems with porn except mine is almost completly homosexual. please pray for me! i need God more than ever in this aspect.

@Jake:
Hey man, I'm not sure if you checked out my comment above...but I know what you're going through man. It is so very very tough. I have done things in my life that I am so ashamed of, and things I wish I could go back and change. How old are you? Have you done anything sexual with a guy? I know this is a personal question, so feel free not to answer. I ask only because if you haven't...DON'T! It is so much harder to step off your homosexual struggle if you have. If you have, brother...I'm here for you. Hit me back, I'd love to talk more. God bless man, and I'm praying for you hard core. Peace!

hey guys...my name is michael.
ive just realized how much of an addiction porn and masturbation is.
ive realized that just like smoking is an addiction, so is porn.
i hate to be in this addiction but i just dont know if i can get out of it..i lie to my friends about not doing it in a while because they are great christians and i feel ashamed that i do it all the time. i hate it. and my life is spiraling downward because of this. i love jesus but im not glorifying him. i hate this. please help and pray. what can i do? (besides x3watch)

Guys are hard-wired for sex. Especially in our teen years we are extremely hormonal. God only sees masturbation as a sin when lustful thoughts or porn is involved. Even Dr. James Dobson has said this. What really has helped me is boysunderattack.com. It explains alot to christian guys. By the way, how old is everyone? im 16

Hey Jake and everyone,

My struggle with porn is also of the homosexual nature. I think when I first started I saw it as less evil b/c at least I wasn't looking at girls in a bad way. However, the tough thing is to get those images out of your mind and think purely throughout the day.

Something encouraging: Last night I was home alone and really tempted. However after a week of living in the flesh I really wanted to live for God. So I just repeated Rom. 12:1 over and over. It was so good. In addition to accountability we need to remember that we will never be strong enough to fight this battle on our own...God knows that and that's why He gave us the Holy Spirit. Men, I think we'd do well to continue to rely on God's strength while we take protective measures to live for God's glory. I want to serve as a missonary and don't want to negatively impact my ministry.

Guys, you can see that we're not alone. So many people have replied to these messages. Hang in there and never get up. When you fall get back up, dust off and keep pressing on. For me the most encouraging thing is to know that we never walk alone (Isaiah 41:10).

FYI I'm 22 and I love you guys. Vamos!

to adam-

Quoting verses from the bible doesn't prove anything because the bible is speculation. Can you prove hell? can you prove that masturbation is a sin? Didn't think so. what you can prove is that after you personally masturbate, it doesn't feel "right." And if you just think "hey. this doesn't feel right because I don't feel good." thats a better reason to quit than "I want to quit because then jesus will like me." I thought Jesus loves everybody regardless? and besides, there are much more important problems in the world you could be helping OTHERS with, such as curing diseases or even helping the homeless. Im sure God didn't want masturbation to be on the top of our priority list.

and to jake-

The last thing jesus would want is for you to hate yourself. He loves you no matter what, right? so who cares if your homosexual because your God shouldn't.

To Zane-

This is true, but it's not just guys. A few hundred years ago it was completely normal (and expected) for 13 year old kids to be married off and reproducing. Even thousands, tens of thousands of years ago, people HAD to reproduce this early because nobody lived very long. In today's society, mid 20's and even 30's and beyond is acceptable and normal. Teenagers are sexual because this is the time for them to be learning about sex and experiencing it, not to mention hormones.

And finally, to Pyro anhell, I have no idea what the hell you just said or really care that much because if you had a valid point you would have articulated it better (I'm not expecting perfection, but at least try!)


Btw I am agnostic. I believe in science mostly but I also believe something else is out there and it (or they) could or could not have anything to do with us directly.
Also, I am bisexual. I have phases of homosexuality now and then, and I used to feel shame for this when I was a christian but now I realized that I can't hate myself for who I am. This realization has made my life a whole lot better and I enjoy every minute of my life because I know who I am and I accept it, much like how if anything created me, it should love me too.


Love yourself and love your god. In his noodley appendages, RAmen

To In his noddley appendages: First, before you argue against something, research it. Your view of the Bible is not Biblical, Jesus died for everyone's sins and loves those whom he died for, the reason not to sin is not because you want to get God to love you, the only reason you should want to not sin is because you love God and wouldn't want to insult him that much. Second, you're right, God doesn't want our first priority to be masturbation. God wants our first priority to be him. Let me make this very clear: I was not talking only of masturbation. I was talking of everything you do that you don't include God in. Third, you were never a Christian, he who began a good work in you will finish it, and if it is never finished, then it never began. I said before that the heart of hearts is evil. Now I hope no one took this to mean that God created Man with an evil heart. I did not mean that. Evil is born out of disobedience to God, and that comes from the fact that it is impossible to understand things from God's point of view. I am also not saying that God was unable to stop this, I'm saying he allowed it because evil serves several purposes. Mainly, it amplifies the attributes of God, and therefore his Glory is revealed, and will be revealed even further when evil is purged from existence. By the way, when I was "agnostic", I found myself disgusted with Christianity and wouldn't go near a Christian website. My definition of an agnostic is one who limits the power of God to communicate to those whom He Himself created. I doubt man's ability to hear God, yes, but I do not doubt God's ability to communicate to man, that is the main reason I believe the Bible to be accurate. God communicated to me that he is real, and He changed my heart (which will last forever if it is indeed a work of God).

joel and graig,

thank you so much for your support. This is extremly hard to deal with. I feel like i cant talk to anyone about this.
to joel's question, im 19 yrs old and yes i have been sexually active with a guy before. Its the worst mistakes i have ever made, and i feel like God shouldn't even try with me anymore. Please Please pray.

also, if you would like to know anything else we can talk about it through email because im not to open about all of this yet:
jaketrevino07@hotmail.com
www.myspace.com/jat7889

contact me with one of these

To adam-
You do have some valid points, but I don't get how my knowledge of the bible isn't "biblical" can you explain this further?

secondly, on the whole "evil is born out of disobedience of god" deal, Christianity and Judaism (same god) were NOT the first religions. There were many many many religions before the old testament was even created, so what happens to the people who lived before it? for that matter, what about everybody who has never even heard of god? are they evil?
I know your going to say that god will know in their hearts their answer to him, which would make this whole life completely useless (If he already knows the answer why the hell would he put us through this life when there is a place infinitely +1 times better)


There are many definitions to the term "agnostic." So many, in fact, that pretty much everybody has their own. Oh, and remember that there are more religions than christianity, I believe that each religion has their own gods and thats totally cool and I find them all to be interesting. I just believe that much like political parties, none of them are truly perfect and therefore a person's entire faith should not be put into one idea. But to be honest I would like to hear how he communicated to you that.

P.S. I really like having conversations like this but I hate when they are filled with anger towards eachother. I only mean to learn more about... well everything. Maybe we can talk on AIM or something?

Well I re-read your earlier comment, and I realized you weren't misinterpreting the Bible, you were misinterpreting me. I never said that I don't sin to get God to like me. Furthermore, I am going to say that God knows everybody's heart and therefore, those who die without knowing him only know evil and therefore deserve the deepest pit of Hell as do I without the redemption of Christ. If God intends to save someone the WILL be saved, no question about it. Just to clarify things, I do not capitalize out of anger, I capitalize out of desire to emphasize. On the topic of how God communicates to His people, this cannot be explained in words, for if something can be described specifically in words, it is not an act of God, which is why generic terms, such as "a changed life", or symbolism, must be used. About other religions: I have only heard of two types of religions, man depending on God, and man depending on himself, the latter just seems too risky for me because I've seen what men do and frankly, it scares me. A further explanation will be provided if asked for. Also, I love standing up for God and I don't have AIM.

I don't agree with you on the whole "they only know evil" idea. People can only know what is existent, like for example gravity. You don't need science to tell you that its there and works, because everything is affected by it. With god, however, its all based on belief of things you cannot see. Of course, nearly every civilization throughout human civilization has come up with a god figure to explain things they do not know how to explain, such as lightning and death. Every civilization has it's own god(s), if any. I just don't see how those people "deserve" to go to hell, you would think that if the christian god existed he would have given them a choice instead of "ha ha sucker you were born on the other side of the planet, even though nobody knew your continent even existed." just seems like its a shot in the dark for people to believe in the same god of the same teachings and the same beliefs without knowing anything about it.

also, what scares you about it? I may not live with God in my life but that doesn't mean I am without morals and running around killing and raping people.

oh and I got that capitalization is for emphasizing certain words. I meant more personal attacks against eachother, if they were to ever happen.

On the whole god's actions cannot be explained by words part, remember that just because two things happen at the same time (Man has sex with woman who he isn't married to, but his kid dies later. That does NOT mean that his kid died from his father having sex with that woman). also religion is commonly used as a crutch, much like how my last girlfriend used it. she was sexually abused as a child and believed the only way to cope with the incident was through christianity, even though she could have gone into any other religion (she is buddhist now, I have never seen a calmer person in my life). so I get the whole "god only helps those who help themselves" BS. People shouldn't have to change human nature to follow god.

But remember that I like the core of christianity, the golden rule and spreading peace. but it seems that the rest can be easily manipulated to allow for insane things to happen such as the spanish inquisition and just about everything that happened in the middle ages, not to mention slave owners.

In his noodley appendages and succulent meatballs, RAmen!

To Joel, Greg, and Jake
i feel where you are coming from and struggle with some of the same temptations, I luckily have never had a sexual encounter with another guy, or anyone for that matter, but I have struggled with homosexual pornography. i will be praying for you guys and hope you will do the same for me, as so many on here have said, we are all in this together. Also Greg congratulations on resisting temptation and lets all pray we continue to be as strong. btw i am 20. God bless all of you and may He watch over us.

Well, when I said they only know evil, here is the explanation behind it. Every single person on this earth has an evil heart, save for those who have been changed by God. An example, if I were to display every single thought that a certain person has ever had in front of a large crowd, that person would do one of two things, either be ashamed and run out of the room, or be proud and show how insult anyone who tries to do the same to him. I don't think I clearly explained myself about how the human heart became evil, as it was not created evil. You should have read Genesis Chapters 1-3 sometime in your life. It's all explained there, disobedience to God because they did not understand the reason to obey God. Regardless of whether or not this part of the Bible is symbolism, it says the same thing. If it is symbolism, it merely happened on a larger scale. Because of one act (or several), the human race became a fallen one. There was, of course, the flood, but I believe that was done only to show the extent God's wrath to Noah, and whoever else had boats if this is, again, symbolism. Our human nature itself is, in fact, evil. Do you have to teach a child to steal? Or lie? Or laugh at those in pain? Remember the slipping on the banana gag? That actually does hurt. There are quite a few adults who have not learned that this is wrong. You don't have to teach them to do those things, but you do have to teach them not to do those things. You also have to teach them how to share, how to say sorry (one of the most important words ever invented). And despite what society tells you, you don't have to teach them about sex, they tend to figure that out on their own, as people figured it out before we started teaching kids about that. I'm not saying we shouldn't teach them about sex, and I wish more health classes would show a birthing video, that'd be a good way to decrease the teen-mother thing. Anyway, tangent, back on the topic, evil, what scares me about what men do for themselves is it's ultimately useless. I'm speaking of other religions, trying to work their way into heaven. You know, when God threw the first humans out of his presence, it was only because of ONE rule they broke, and they were never again to enter his presence. I bet if you walk up to any person and ask them how many times they've sinned against God, many will say they haven't a clue. Now I will say that the only reason you have morals is that God is holding you back from making Hitler look like a choir boy, indeed, God was holding Hitler back as well.

That was the most vague answer I have ever received in my life. hah

a. The old testament was not created with mankind, so everybody in-between the "creation" or evolution of man to when the bible was first written would not have any idea what or who god is. They do not know they are evil because the story of adam and eve was not told yet, so how could they repent or follow a god that has not "shown" himself yet?

b. Define "good" and "evil." Everybody has their own definitions. The bible might say "thou shalt not kill" but god kills (both by himself, through people, Disease, etc) and he tells people to kill innocent people, like in leviticus 20:13. God is said to be a loving god who says he will "never keep anger forever", such as in Jeremiah 3:12 but in Jeremiah 17:4 god turns around and says "Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. Thus saith the Lord."

c. "other religions are ultimately useless." prove it. (with other sources than the bible. A religion cannot prove itself, you need 3rd party documents / studies to do this)

d. I don't understand what the last section with hitler is trying to say. did you mean that God is holding me back from killing people?

Oh and I suggest you read the book Anti-semitism- The road to the holocaust and beyond. by charles patterson. It's not a book that bashes religion or anything, its just a good book.

And also look up the inquisitions, namely the spanish inquisition.

and check out this site-
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Completely insane people driven by verses in the bible to do things that ultimately do more hurt than good

In his noodley appendages:

I'm so glad you're here, representing the true "faith" :). The rest of the people posting here seem pretty nutty, but I suppose thats to be expected in such a bastian of sexual repression.

Like so many things in life, masterbation can be addictive, just like coffee, cashew nuts, and hugs. I once had a friend who was addicted to moisturiser of all things. My point is that while some people become addicted to masterbation, for the vast majority of people it isn't a problem. Certainly from a medical standpoint there is nothing wrong with occasional masterbation whatsoever. It is the safest form of sex avalable, as it cannot cause STDs or get anyone pregnant. For teenagers, like myself, who have reached the age of sexual maturity, but are not yet sexually active, masterbation provides a well needed outlet for sex drive.

All that said, masterbation can become a problem for some people, excessive masterbation (more than twice per day) can have a significant impact on someone's daily life, and they should probably seek help of some kind, but this situation is representitive of an extremely small minority of masterbaters.

Masterbation is a natural function of the human body, its not "dirty" or "wrong", and I highly doubt that your God would program masterbation into our brains if he didn't want you to do it.

And to Noodley: The FSM will be with you, always. May his Noodley Apendages be a light unto you're plate, and warm you're heart with carbohydrate and protien. Ramen.

To reason-

Hello fellow pirate! may the FSM bless you with his noodles of carbohydrate deliciousness.

Btw it's masturbation I don't know that a bation is or why you want to master it(: I kid I kid.

Yeah to say masturbation is unnatural is a very strange thing to do. the human sex drive needs release (more or less depending on the individual) and porn is a way to help doing so.

It is true that the availability of porn has risen thanks to the internet, but I, like many others, believe that porn is better than sex in the sense of safety. You can't give yourself an std (I guess you could transfer syphilis from your genitals to your mouth if you really wanted to, but you still have it regardless). also, you can't get pregnant from it; reproduction with nearly 7 billion people already living on a planet that will NOT be able to produce enough energy / recourses for that many people is an obvious design flaw of the earth. If god wanted us to continue being fruitful and multiplying, he would have made the earth bigger to accommodate for this rise in population.

[joke] Of course, the rise of population has nothing to do with global warming or gridlock. It's all in the steady decline of pirates since the early 1800's, because since that same time global temperatures have risen substantially, therefore they must be connected! [/joke]

To Reason-

Good to see a fellow Pastafarian here. RAmen!

Silence is golden.


RAmen.

Noodely: Ah, yes "masturbation", sorry its not a word I have to spell very often. :)

To Noodley pasta guy:


We as christians do not believe that masturbation is unnatural. Sin is natural among humans. If so many of us do it, then it is natural as humans to do it. That, however does not make it a good thing. It is an addiction not an "addiction" as you typed it. I was going through it but now am not and believe me, i know the difference between an addiction and some kind of feeling. You said that years ago you went to this site and believed that if you didn't stop your mom would die and God would hate you. You couldn't go 2 days without masturbating. You never said that you stopped masturbating after coming to this site. I agree with Adam and i don't think you were ever a serious christian. If you were, like many of us here are, then you would have had faith in God to help you with this problem. I believe that's why you are here again years after the failure (apparently). God has led you here again to deal with more than masturbation, but also your seperation from Christianity. I think you came to this site to see if you were alone in your failure with this problem. It IS a problem and has affected every one of us, especially you.

PLEASE reply back to me. I'd love to communicate with you on this subject.

To Reason:

This site isn't meant for medical standpoints, but for biblical standpoints on this subject. Don't bother with the medical stuff, most of us already know it and have run it through our minds at times to try to convince ourselves that its ok to masturbate.

Maturbation is not a form of sex. Sex means to have intercourse with another person. You can't have intercourse with yourself. Albeit it is sexual, but not sex.

If you still believe it is ok to masturbate at your age then you are not sexually mature as you say you are. And admit it, you don't need to masturbate to relieve your sexual tension as you say you do. You can let that temptation pass and you know it.

Where do you get your sources? People who masturbate once a day or less can have a problem. Did you count the number of people who comment on these posts? Is that where you got your example of small minority? These people are here to find help, but this isn't the only place that offers this kind of help. There's a lot of people that have this problem and are denying it, including you. Are you one of the people that only does it once a day so that it doesn't become a problem? Doing it on a daily basis makes it a problem and you're closer to doing it more than once a day. More than you think.

Masturbation is not a natural function of the human body, but of the mind and only the mind. Having an orgasm is a natural funtion of the human body.

It is wrong to masturbate. Masturbation is a sin and as humans we sin. God doesn't want us to sin, but we do it anyway because we are not perfect, which God is. But what is bad can ultimately end up being good. We learn from our mistakes and become stronger in God. If he gave us the ability to not sin, then what would be the point of us being here on earth?

Believe me I am a Christian. I just like to talk a bit more forcefully to people who purposely come to sites and other places like this to bother and banter with people who are trying to get over this PROBLEM.-Please reply back I'd be happy to talk more about it.-

Evan:

I should of course have realised that discussing masturbation / pornography from a medical / scientific / rational point of view would be of no interest to you. If you believe that these things are bad simply because God dosn't want you to do them, then there is nothing I can say to make you see sense.

As to people needing help with the "problem" of masturbation; It is only a problem because you say it is. If the writers of the bible had happened not to mention that particular sin, then there would be no problem. This is exactly the same as silly rules that other religions have, such as not eating pork, or wearing special underwear.

All that said, I understand that this is a Christian site for people with this specificly Christian problem. Christianity, like many religions, is of course all about fixing problems in people that don't exist. Masterbation is NOT wrong, natural functions of the human mind / body are not sins, The all powerfull creator of the universe dosn't care if you play with yourself.

I found your assertion that I am not sexually mature because I know it's ok to masturbate interesting. Of course, people in their early teens, when they first discover masterbation are often very frightened by it, thinking it might be wierd or wrong. It isn't untill people become more mature that they realise that masturbation is normal, and something almost everyone does. I guess you have not become that mature yet?

Believe me I am an Atheist, I just like to talk more forcefully to people who purposely spread lies about normal human behavior.

Anyway, I'm going to go now. In order to convince you of my point, I would pretty much have to convince you that God dosn't exist, and I don't think that is going to happen. I really just wanted to make the point that there is nothing technically wrong with masterbation, it causes no harm unless done excessively, this "sin" is a purely religious invention. If you want to be free of the sins of masturbation and pornography, become an Atheist.

Reason:

Masturbation/pornography from a medical/scientific/rational point of view is something i have interest in. As long as you put it also in a Biblical perspective. I don't believe that they are bad as long as you include the Bible and God in the point of view. They are not bad to do and I don't know where you came up with that. Unless you're talking about masturbation/pornography, those are bad.

I used to think it wasn't a problem until I realized that it took up a lot of my day(mostly pornography). I didn't have to tell myself it was a problem, it just became one. I did it before i knew it was a sin, just because the Bible says it's a sin that doesn't mean that we're all going to go out and do it. A lot of other religions have this rule also, not just Christianity.

It is not a specifically Christian problem. People who are not Christians have admitted to having this problem. Christianity isn't mainly about "fixing" problems. Those problems do exist. I wasn't a Christian when i first had it but now i am and I have stopped the problem.

Let me make it a bit clearer. Masturbation is something we were not meant to do to. It's unnecessary, I don't need to do it and i don't do it anymore. If it isn't a problem then why is it necessary for you to do it? It is tricking the body into thinking that it is having sex, which it isn't. Its ONLY a funtion of the sinning mind not the body. God does care if you masturbate because it is against his rules and can cause you to concentrate more on it than him. Don't talk about something you don't know.

BELIEVE ME i am mature enough to not even do it. There is no point to it. You get a slight burst of euphoria and then it ends. People get addicted to it that way. They want to feel more of the happiness so they do it more, then it becomes a problem. If you don't need to do it then why bother? Do something more productive with the time you have.

If i WOULD have spread lies then i would be a hypocrite. I always try as hard as i can not to be one, but it happens to everybody. I did not lie about anything in the post above. Why would I give false information about something that I am trying very hard to prove? Tell me specifically what i "lied" about and I will explain how i didn't lie.

Hey you're right! Technically and medically there is nothing wrong with masturbating. It can even help prevent porstate cancer. BUT Biblically there is something wrong with masturbation thats why we're here, why are you here? If sin is an invention then why are you saying we can escape it by becoming atheists? Are you actually saying it's real? You CANT escape sin by becoming an atheist, but by being a Christian. By being an atheist you live with sin and get used to it, but you can't escape it.

To evan-

Obviously you didn't read all of my posts. I have gone nearly 6 months without masturbation, as an agnostic, simply because I wanted to see how long I could go.

The reason why I came back to this site was to warn people that this site has the potential to do more harm than good, and on the whole "My mother will die and god will hate me" part, look at this article- http://xxxchurch.com/blogs/teens/moveon.html

I quote from this article; "David completely went against God and had sex with a woman he was not married to, he lied about it and even ordered a murder on the front lines over it all. In the aftermath of his screw up he was called out. He finally confessed to his close friend Nathan and repented to the Lord. As a consequence for his(yeah I fixed the spelling) sin, God let his son die."

God killed David's son for something as simple as having sex with a woman he wasn't married to. God is an asshole if this is true, and he obviously hates David because he killed his kid (why would he kill people's sons to show how much he loves them and forgives them?) So articles like this one show how easy it is to think that god will hate you and kill your loved ones because you have committed to a supposed "sexual offense."

I quote from my earlier post; "In leviticus 20:13. God is said to be a loving god who says he will "never keep anger forever", such as in Jeremiah 3:12 but in Jeremiah 17:4 god turns around and says "Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. Thus saith the Lord."

Christianity is an insane jewish sect, which just so happens to be an even more insane religion. (Old jewish law is crazy. Killing somebody was pretty much the same as shaking their hand.)

Also, please do not tell me how I live my life and why I do things, Like post on this site. You do not know my intentions and you do not know me.

I agree with reason on the last paragraph. I broke my "addiction" simply by giving up on the whole "ITS A SIN!!!!!!!!!@!@3" idea.
Also, It is true that for me to thoroughly convince you I would pretty much have to prove christianity wrong, which is something I do not intend to do because I do appreciate the gesture of christianity and religion; which is to live in peace with yourself and those around you. I just believe that the rest of christianity doesn't quite fit into that gesture, and should be changed/abandoned for the ideas of the gesture itself.

"Masturbation is not a natural function of the human body, but of the mind and only the mind. Having an orgasm is a natural funtion of the human body." My eyes bleed every time I see this crap. The mind is a bodily function, It is the reaction of physical processes to create senses. Electronic impulses, hormones, all of that determines thought processes. There is no difference between the body and the mind.

In is succulent meatballs of protein goodness, RAmen!

Noddley:

I did read all of your posts. I admit i made some mistakes, but everybody does. I never said you needed religion or Christianity to get away from masturbation, but it helps us who believe in God to get away from the temptation we don't want.

The situation with David is something you should read for yourself and not read through third person. God is wrathful at times and gives what is deserved to his people. David deserved what he got. His son died and yeah thats harsh, but God wouldn't have killed his son had he not known that his son was saved. His son dying was only a punishment to David and David apologized and asked for forgiveness. God forgave him and I'm guessing David inevitably got to see his son when he got to heaven. God didn't hate him but was angry with him and then forgave him like he always does when people ask for forgiveness. You just seemed to have taken it too far and thought something absolutely devastating was going to happen to you. He didn't punish him just for having sex with a woman he wasn't married to, but also for all of the other horrible things he did to hide it.

Leviticus 20:13 is the verse about homosexuality. I think you got it mixed up with the others.

In Jeremiah 3:12 God was speaking to a FAITHFUL Israel who had commited adultery but had come back to God. He was telling her he wasn't mad at her anymore and was forgiving her. Israel(who is a woman)had a sister named Judah. Judah was NOT FAITHFUL. In Jeremiah 17:12 God was declaring his anger towards the evil Judah was displaying. She did not fear God before unlike her sister. Judah continued the adultery and never came to the Lord for forgiveness. In Jeremiah 17:1 he explains that Judah has engraved her sin upon the non believers who worship false idols. They believe that it is not a bad thing to do. God is angry because of this and always will be because it's evil that was permanently set into those people. If you have FAITH in him and ask for forgiveness for what you did then he will forgive you.

I believe that Christianity is indefinately rooted with Judaism. But we believe in Jesus and that he has already been here on earth and will come again. They believe he has not come yet. I don't know much about Judaism because I'm a Christian not a Jew. Christianity is only insane to people who don't know what it is like. Trust me when you become a devoted believer you will never want to leave, it's the best feeling in the world to be involved with God. If you ever know this feeling then you will regret saying that it is insane.

I never told you how you were living your life, i was just taking a chance and guessing why you were here, which was a big mistake. You're right i do not know you but now i know your intentions for being on this site. I read what you said.

What i was trying to say(but not very well)was that you have to do everything through your mind. There is a difference between your body and your mind: Your mind controls your body, not the other way around. The mind is'nt a bodily function but what you do with it is. The mind is'nt a verb and isn't a funtion, but rather something that's in your body. It causes you to function. When i said natural function i meant something you can't control like an orgasm. Or having to pee or poo. You can't stop it from happening, but you can stop masturbation from happening. I just think i worded it wrong.

On the story of david-

Sucks for the kid for having to pay for his father's sin. I thought there was a verse in the bible that said that children cannot be blamed or held against their father's sins, I just don't know where it is. and that wouldn't make sense, why wouldn't god just kill david so he can pay for his own sins?

haha wow I didn't even notice I put the wrong verse down. Leviticus 20:13 is my favorite verse.

I think it's a stupid idea for religion to separate groups into "believer" and "non-believer." and how they are evil, It only leads to problems (Islamic extremism vs. the christian far right, for example). I really don't see how that would bring peace, so by god calling them evil probably wasn't the best thing to do; seeing as the way things are in today's time and even throughout history.

The thing I noticed about christianity is that yes, it makes you feel good. People like to believe they are special and are right (same with any religion) and going to church really fuels that because there is absolutely no opposition there.

I believe its a great thing to feel at peace, but most churches seem to want to "wage war" over things such as a simple paragraph in a book that barely hints at a sexual position (as in ricochet river), masturbation, evolution being taught in schools, etc.
The views I have on christianity may be skewered but churches rarely make stuff up. the whole "god hates fags" slogan is pretty much backed up by numerous verses in the bible, so its not like they are misrepresenting christianity.

Ricochet river was shot down because parents didn't want their kids to be reading pornography in schools (Like kids will read it anyway, and if they did I am sure that one paragraph wouldn't have corrupted their mind and converted them to satanism [/joke]).

But it's hard to define true christianity, because christians have a very bad reputation in history (In general). For example, the inquisitions and crusades. both backed up by beliefs in the bible, but I'm sure god didn't want us to shove spiked mechanisms up homosexual's anuses, as in the spanish inquisition, or send pre-teens to battle in the bitter cold to fight an enemy that didn't do anything wrong.
So my definition of "true" christianity is the insane ones because they are following the bible to the word, which is shown through the creation museum and the organization who designed it, "Answers in Genesis".

Im not completely against / disgusted with religion and christianity. I just believe the bible is not a reliable view on god/jesus/whoever 's teachings.

I don't mean to kill god either. I don't mean that anybody who believes in this is a complete idiot who should go die in their own puddle of ignorance, because thats not right. I believe that there is something out there, but I don't believe it cares that much about us, it could even be dead.

To the whole mind/body thing-

When you touch a flame, your body (hopefully) tells your "mind" through nerves to move the hand away from the fire. to do this, electronic impulses are sent up to the brain and then sent back to make your muscles "twitch" the hand out of the way.
The mind is nothing but a "hub" for your body that only deals with cause and effect. Of course, it is extremely complicated, but that doesn't mean it's a miracle.

Also, not everything is controlled by the mind in your body. You can't stop a heart with your mind. Oh and you can stop your digestive system(by not eating/drinking), but you will die in the process.

... but you can stop feeling pain without killing yourself, though. so why feel pain if it's not necessary?

maybe I am misunderstanding you, or maybe your just not wording things right. Idk.

oh and on the whole "my intentions for posting here" thing, I am here to learn. I know my argument has flaws, thats why I am here; To fix those. If I am wrong on the whole thing and religion proves it wrong, so be it. but just remember that if I am proved wrong, It doesn't prove the religion. It only proved me.

RAmen

Noodley (sorry i spelled it wrong last time)-

If the kid was a believer in Christ and had faith in him then he didn't pay for anything, he got a free ticket to heaven early. Im not saying this really happened in the story but it's a theory that the son was a faithful believer. He wasn't held accountable for his sins, his death was just used as an instrument to teach David a lesson.

God wouldn't kill David. David believed in God and had faith in God. I know his son did too, but God had plans for David. If David died without asking for forgiveness and appologizing, he would have gone to hell and God doesn't want that. Killing David as a punishment would have sent him to hell. Instead God allowed David's son to die to teach David a lesson in the most extreme way possible and in the end result it worked and David was forgiven. It's a story in the Bible that teaches us that no matter what you do God will take care of you as long as you have faith in him. Sometimes it's a bit harsh what God does but it hits home as hard as anything can and teaches you a lesson. He is a loving God, but he is also a wrathful God. Don't listen to Joel Osteen, he just preaches about happy side of God.

I didn't say all nonbelievers were evil, just those ones in particular. Even though there are other evil nonbelievers out there. What else are we supposed to call them? Its not like a curse word, its what they are. God called those select people evil, not all nonbelievers.

If people think that Christianity is about being able to think you're special and right then thats wrong in some ways. The only way i feel special is that i have a relationship with God. I don't have any self righteousness and i dont think I'm better than anybody. I definately dont think I'm right all the time and neither should anybody else. I know what you mean though. Every religion feels that they are doing the right thing. I have to admit, I'm one of those people. Christianity is the best religion in the world compared to others. I know about others, PLEASE dont argue with me about it. And going to church doesn't make you a Christian. It can make you a stronger one, but can reading the Bible at home.

I don't care about the books. I think parents should prepare their children for the real world that is out there. Let them read the book. Just make sure they know that they don't have to believe it and stress the importance of Christianity towards them. Prepare them, cause theres more than just books out there.

Can you give me the verses on the "God hates homosexuals" thing. I want to read them. Im not challenging you in any way i just want the verses.

I don't know much about the crusades and the spanish inquisition. What i want to know is in what time period were they?

The Bible is the only reliable view on God's teachings. What other view is there?

You're right about the mind/body thing with the body telling the mind whats going on and stuff. I needed to get that clear. I know you can stop your digestive system but i meant not being able to stop it while still living. I know you can't stop your heart with your mind, thats the kind of thing i categorize as a natural bodily function that you can't control. That's just my categorization, the way i think of it.

If we didn't feel pain, then we wouldn't know if we were hurt sometimes. We need pain to alert ourselves so we can get medical attention. Otherwise you would need a person telling you when you were hurt or something.

The religion SIDE of the argument would be proved right if you were proved wrong, not the religion. Christianity has more to it than what we are talking about. I don't expect to convert you or anything, I'm just defending my side of the argument.

Sorry if I keep spelling things wrong in this post, my keyboard isn't working very well.

The david story just seems very cruel. David's son had a life and I sure hope that god's plan for him wasn't to die for his dad's sins.
What I am trying to get across is that David's son had a life also. I don't see how killing off his life to make a statement (given it is extremely large) for his dads life is a good thing, even if he gets a quick trip to heaven.

Nonbelievers isn't a curse word. I probably worded that wrong. so let me put it this way-

Put two populations (or religions) right next to eachother and tell each group that their own group is the absolute right and the other group is fundamentally flawed. Depending on the people they could immediately start killing eachother or they could be more civilized about it and say "hey your cool but I know I'm right." either way eventually something bad is going to happen. All throughout history christianity has not had the best track record with this, granted that really only the bad times are recorded (sadly). From divine intervention to slave owning in christianity. In other religions also such as ancient greek/roman mythology and just about every other religion wars and crusades have taken place (especially radical islam.) My point is that for the bible to say that christians are right and everybody else is wrong, even if it doesn't imply killing them, bad things happen that humanity wouldn't have faced had the religion never been conceived.

Alternatively what could happen is the society could collapse into itself for the same reason, as seen with the pilgrims, and I know the book is only based on the events (but the pilgrims did collapse for the same reasons) but the crucible by arthur miller is a demonstration of what can go wrong with religious fanaticism.

About the books-

I was just explaining what was going on because my mom was an english teacher at the time and we had to switch churches because the one we went to kept bringing it up and how teachers, like my mom, are destroying the morals of teenagers.

Here is the main website of the god hates fags freaks-
http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Im sure they have a couple verses on there that I would not be able to find myself.
Also, there are numerous "conversion" tactics and churches out there, like the "Love won out" from Focus on the Family.

My point is that people will do sick shit to eachother and christianity seems to be backing it up, and thats ultimately holding me back from believing in god; because regardless of if he exists or not it really seems like he is an asshole for encouraging the slaughter of innocent people.
For example one of the most infamous tortures in the spanish inquisition was to hang a homosexual by his ankles so his head was a few feet above the ground, and use a two-man saw to slowly grind his body away starting at the genitals. The human body will continue living until the blade hits the sternum. I found a huge detailed book (includes pictures) of the devices used in the inquisitions, I will attempt to find it again.

Some that I know-
Leviticus 20:13
Leviticus 18:22
I know there are more, but aren't as clear about homosexuality, such as the story of the two cities sodom and gamorah (sp?)

The crusades and the inquisitions were throughout the middle ages, but the effects are still prevalent and in many countries it is illegal to have homosexual relations, and in a few in the middle east the death penalty is called. (I will look up which ones, I forgot which ones exactly. I think that Afghanistan was one of them, before liberation.)

The term "faggot" came from how Homosexuals were used as a replacement for firewood at witch burnings. So not only are people burning other people they believed to be "witches" but they were using other people as the fuel.

well considering that Judaism, islam, christianity, and bahai faith all have the same god, there are multiple views on the same idea. Not to mention the vast amounts of offsprings and interpretations of each of those 4.

... lets drop the mind/body thing. I don't even remember or see how that is relevant anymore hah

again, I would have been the only one proved wrong, because I don't know everything about my own side, I don't even know what side I am on hah. So I'm not representing anything or anybody but myself, so If I am proved wrong, I am proved wrong. not the other side; regardless or not if it had anything to do with it.

I know christianity is a vast idea, and I know your not trying to convert me, which is why I haven't quit this argument.

Oh yeah almost forgot. On the whole pain thing, I do a lot of martial arts. It's not only expected but a requirement to not care much about pain. When I got my ACL tear I couldn't understand why I couldn't do sparring 30 minutes later haha so yeah I get what your saying, but It's definitely not a requirement to survival, just an extremely useful tool.

In his noodley appendages, RAmen!

With the David story I was encorporating my own theory into why it was ok for his son to die. It may or may not be a good theory but i dont fully believe in it. The Bible is a collection of books that takes a lot of thought to read through at times. I have a study Bible which helps me as much as possible with any questions i have about a certain passage. I would have to study the Bible harder in order to find a good answer for this controversial subject. I do know that God doesn't just kill people like they are nothing. He cares about every one of us and has a plan for every one of us. I don't fully understand his actions and i don't think anybody will. But the more we understand about him the more it makes sense. I dont know how else to put it.

I agree that if you put two groups(nonbelievers and believers) together there will be fighting and there has been fighting. Much worse things could have happened without the introduction of Christianity. One of the reasons people stop fighting is because they want peace, you said that Christianity wants to bring peace between people and i know it can. If this world didn't have Christianity it would be a much more hateful place than it already is.

With the crusades and the spanish inquistition. I believe that the so called "Christians" fighting and creating all these problems or whatever were not Christians. Were they Catholic? Catholicism was considered Chritianity until Martin Luther came around and discovered that some of what the Catholic church was doing was rediculous. Some of what they were doing was not Christian-like. The Bible was misinterpreted through their minds. Catholicism is not Christianity and back in the middle ages most of the people in Europe were Catholic.

I'd rather not like to learn about the root of terms that are now used as curse words. I find the words unnecessary to the human languages. I'm not trying to be blunt or hurt your feelings and i don't have disrespect towards gay people. I just Don't need it.

The only real reliable view on God's teachings is the Bible. When i said that i meant to include Christianity and Judaism. The other religions you mentioned don't view God in the same exact ways as Judaism and Christianity. They have different opinions on subjects that Christianity and Judaism agree on.(I know most Jews only believe the old testament). With Christianity there are other branches of the same teachings. They just teach them in different styles. Episcopalian(idk if thats how to spell it), Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Southern Baptist, etc. Im just a normal Christian. There is no other way to say it. Im not involved with any of those branches. The only major ritual we have at my church is communion. What I'm trying to stress here is that Catholicism, Mormonism and others are not Christian, but their own religions.

Yes pain is not a requirement of survivial. It is a useful tool though to know when you are walking on a shattered ankle and not just walking on gravel with one foot haha. I agree with you on that, i know where you're coming from.

THINK ABOUT HOW THE PORN FEELS


HOW DARE YOU

To Evan

I agree with a lot of what you've been saying, but I think you need to look deeper into what Christianity is. Catholicism is misguided in much of its teachings, for instance a combination of faith and works in order to reach heaven rather than faith in God alone, sins being forgiven by a priest, and the whole idea of purgatory, however, it is still Christianity. Though I would say its much harder for someone to become truly saved in the Catholic church, the gospel of Christ is still there. The base of Christianity is believing that Christ is the son of God, that he died and was raised from the dead. All other beliefs apart from this, though important to growth, are somewhat just icing on the cake. Also, the Catholic church has dark periods in its past just like Protestantism does, remember the Salem witch trials were done by Protestants. However, they also have shining lights like Protestantism does. Protestants have Martin Luther and John Wesley, Catholics have St. Francis of Assisi and Mother Theresa. And we can all learn from all of them.

If you search in the Catholic church you will find some truly saved people. First, look into the Catholic workers union (if you've never heard of it look it up, they do some pretty amazing things). Also there have been and are many nuns and other Catholics who have taken Christ's commands to feed the hungry and clothe the poor to heart and acted out his love on earth better than many Protestants who have been content to sit in church and watch the world tear itself apart with poverty and hunger. Though many try and say Mother Theresa wasn't Christian b/c she said she didn't feel God's prescence, she never doubted his existence and his work through her, and she took the commands of Christ to love sacrificially to heart. I truly believe whether she believed in purgatory, the necessity of works, or the ability of a priest to forgive sins or whatever, she believed in Jesus Christ and will be spending eternity with Him.

And I'm not Catholic and though I don't like denominations, as far as basic doctrinal beliefs go I am most like the Southern Baptists.

So I guess all in all what I'm trying to say is to not dismiss Catholicism as non-Christian so flippantly without acknowledging that they do share the gospel of Christ.

to evan-

About all the denominations such as catholicism doing bad things... Thats exactly what my point is. Misinterpretations of the bible ARE those denominations, but as far as I am concerned, Christianity is a denomination of judaism, and judaism, while still different, Is a religion that is "made up" of other older religions. virgin birth, God's taking the forms of humans, Ideas of heaven and hell, Days of judgement.. These were not new ideas. Now I don't know if Judaism did steal these or not, but if the ideas were already existent, Judaism (and therefore all religions that are influenced by it) are not anything new, and are in fact, late comers.

"I'd rather not like to learn about the root of terms that are now used as curse words. I find the words unnecessary to the human languages. I'm not trying to be blunt or hurt your feelings and i don't have disrespect towards gay people. I just Don't need it."
Get over it.

"The only real reliable view on God's teachings is the Bible."
Prove it.

"I know most Jews only believe the old testament"
They do not. They study the Torah, a book that was modified to better suit christianity as the "old testament".

To YHWH
It feels great, I don't see anything wrong with it.

And how dare I what? if that post was aimed at me, anyway

To Justin-

Awesome post, I'm glad to see somebody who understands you can't separate Catholicism and christianity into two completely different religions.

I'm getting some teeth pulled tomorrow. I'm not going to be able to post for a few days.

In his noodley appendages, RAmen!

It's so sad to see people coming in here and telling us that we're wrong just because we disagree with what they and the world have to say. People call us closed-minded and discriminatory. When people say "Christians should be more accepting," they're effectively discriminating against Christians.

I'm in the same boat as Justin, Jake, Greg, and Joel. I've struggled with homosexuality for as long as I could remember, and it's so difficult because people just don't understand. I've told a few people about it, which was a huge burden off my shoulders, but I know I can't be as open about it as I am with my struggle with porn, because people don't know that it's a struggle that Christians face. I do a google search, and you have people on the one side saying accept it, that it's not wrong at all. Then people on the other side say that it's completely sinful (which I'm not going to argue with) and that any person with these feelings are going to hell (which I will argue with). I praise God that my struggle has not manifested itself physically with another person, but I feel like I know what Paul felt like in 2 Corinthians 12; this is a definite thorn in my side that I've asked God repeatedly to take away, and He hasn't. I just pray that I can accept it the way Paul did in verse 9.

To jason-

I don't care what you do with your life. It doesn't really matter to me that your homosexual and struggle with it. I post here because I feel like it, not to "hate on christians."

And besides, it's pretty ignorant to want to shove out all other views because you don't agree with them. People will always post here to support the "other side." Get used to it.

In his noodley appendages, RAmen.

To Noodley-

I'm not trying to shove out anything. I'm expressing my views. You came to a Christian website designed for people who struggle with pornography, and you say that Christianity is wrong and porn is good. How do you expect people to respond? If I went onto an atheist thread, and said, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God,'" I wouldn't expect to be dealt with kindly.

Anyway, this whole argument has gotten people completely off topic. Please, people, comment on John's Confession.

I was just expressing my opinions. I dont think Catholics should represent Christianity. A lot of people consider them Christians, but they do things more off topic than other Christian associated religions(the ones im thinking of).

Im really just agoainst the whole idea that works can get you into heaven. I've encountered people that say they are going to heaven because they are good people and have done good things. Thats not how you get to heaven. Its grace through faith in God. Works aren't bad, don't get me wrong. Works are good to do and you should do them just remember that just being a good person doesn't get you into heaven. Thats all i was trying to express on that subject. I know what you're saying Justin and I agree with you. They do teach the Gospel and there are truly saved people associated with the religion.

Im not protestant if thats what I came off as. Im non denominational. I am most like the Southern Baptisists as well.

To Noodley:
I agree with you in the first paragraph. I know Judaism wasnt the first religion. I know Christianity is a denomination of Judaism.

Im a younng person, Im 18. I have a lot to learn through Christianity and i definately dont know everything about it. I believe that if Christianity is rooted in Judaism, then Judaism could be rooted in other religions i guess. Thats why Im saying that I dont know everything. Im still learning about everything and I don't know if what I just said is true with Judaism possibly being rooted with other religions.

I am over curse words. I can deal with them all the time. They dont bother me when i hear them but i dont speak them. I just didnt know why you had to go off subject to tell me how that word was invented.

Read the paragraph about the Bible being the only reliable view on the CHRISTIAN/JUDAIC God. I dont know if i can prove it but I will learn to throughout this year and part of the next year. Im going to a Christian school in Texas that teaches about these things. Maybe I'll get back to you on that when I've gained more information or whatever.

When i said most Jews only believe the old testament. Isn't that what the Torah represents(the old testament)?

Jason:
All i have to say is good post and I'll pray for you. I know its gotten off topic, but i think its important to support my views on the subject that others are arguing against. But yeah i wish people would comment on the video instead of the converstaion giong on between the other commenters. Even though its a free country and they can do that if they want.

I wont be able to comment as frequently. Im sick and i could possibly have bronchitis.