I've Asked "Why Porn?" Too

Why porn?

Because it's one of the few sources of pleasure in my life.

Sorry to hear that Shannon. Keep praying that God will bring blessing and relief to you as you reach out to others who are in need too.

@OP Good point... its usually not about the spouse, although there can sometime be the underlying element of getting "even" in a virtual world when one is angry at the other. I don't think that's the norm. Its usually a somewhat secret habit most guys and some girls bring into their marriages. Hopefully most couples today are having an honest talk about this BEFORE they get married, as it is so prevalent.

The secrecy is one of the things that perpetuates an addiction. There is also the matter of fetishes, or fantasies that somehow got wedged in their minds that need to be dealt with when they are "sober". I use the word sober, cause porn abuse is like a drug, the users binge and stay "high" for awhile seemingly out of control. Then they crash, feel bad, and go back to it eventually to medicate their bad feelings with the synthetic euphoria machine, almost like the orgasmatron in "Sleeper". If the "addict" can talk about this with someone who understands and won't condemn them, that will cause the bondage to begin breaking.

Of course, many women have fantasies and do solo sex as well. That's one thing that has puzzled me. Guys are far more driven to the visual stimuli than girls. Guys have 40X the testosterone than girls. So, why is all of this surprising? And aren't the ladies being hypocritical when many of them do the same thing, not as often, not with outright porn perhaps, but something "softer", and then go ballistic when they discover their hubby, boyfriend is an "addict"?

Again, the secrecy and shame feeds the addictive nature by causing an adrenaline rush in doing risky behavior. This causes a spike in the "thrill" of it. The fallen nature thinks "stolen waters are sweet, bread eaten in secret is pleasant". Once the 'addict' if a male gets free from that cycle, my belief is that they should be put back "in charge of" their life again, because if they get "nannied", their desire to be in control will cause them to do things in secrecy to regain the control that is being denied them.

just a few thoughts

Nicole is correct when she wrote: Accepting that it wasn’t about me equaled accepting that I couldn’t control the outcome. I’m as powerless over his addiction as he is. I couldn’t make it stop.

The one person who could and should have asked Why & said no before he let it all go. ( could have made it stop before it ever started was him). He had the ability and the mind to say no, think of me first, and set that temptation aside. It was a careless and compulsive act repeated and he knew it was wrong ( addiction or not ) and he had the power within to stop it. That is what pissed me off initially and still does. Always will. That compiled with many more acts of poor choices that said to me he was tired of being married to the same woman for so many years and was on the hunt to replace me sexually. He was on dreaming of someone else to do, looking for ways to find it, placing himself in many situtations a husband and father should not be. Actively filling his mind and persona with garbage all around.

So now I'm supposed to believe it's an addiction full throttle- Yes, it can develope into that no doubt. Do I think he had let it slip that far- yes, and was moving onto the next level.. Research proves the high they get. Yet the initiall choice was already tinted with shame and knowledge that it was wrong as it was hidden. Why? Because he knew I would not have approved and would have said hell no crew you - live somewhere else.

Complete trust and respect for the man is broken. Walls and guards are set as caution says don't let this man hurt me again. I didn't deserve that kind of crap after all I've done for him. The why's haunt my dreams and thoughts daily. Now the why's are joined by the When..When will my anger, bitterness, hurt, tears, his memory, mistrust, disrespect, cravings for it, end? You can't just turn it all back to good once the damage is done. A clean slat is only so doable for a person ya know. Too many mistakes make it foolish to completely turn the other cheek as Jesus can. Turning to God has not made any of that reality disappear and I know after working on this for a long period of time- those thoughts of will it happen again, is he lying, and so on will never end. So believe it men when she says it can become an addiction and you shouldn't put the person you love in such chaos. I hope it was all worth ruining a good thing over. Foolish men, world of hurt is what it brings.

The most painful for me is knowing when I should leave. Sometimes the pain is so great I feel like I can mot go another day, another hour, another minute.

The thought of my husand sitting in front of his computer, acting out like that with this sleezy woman, make me lose all respect for him and actually makes me physicall ill.

I have been dealing with this for 7 years now...all the lies and deciet. WHo knows what he has been able to hide from me. I know he has taken it into the real world a couple of times that he has confessed to, but who knows what more he has done

Im so tired of his empty apologies. I'm so tired of him wanting me to accept some of the blame (I should lose weight). He even married me over-weight for the potential that I could be and then refused to be with me sexually because he says he isn't attracted to me. The pain is so deep, regardles if you know the truth. They say the chances of him being healed from this is about 5%. I want to know how much more of my life do I have to sacrifice for 5% chance? We are all suffering here.

@Sher

Sounds like a not so nice guy to be married to. You probably should have left him after 60 days, if he refused to enter a treatment plan or failed to respond to treatment.

I don't believe in divorce for any reason, but a separation is certainly fine, since he is hurting you emotionally and neglecting you physically. If you want to keep your marriage, you will probably have to be the strong one to determine how to help him overcome.

He's not allowed to neglect sex with his wife, as you probably know. (I Cor.7:1-7 approx) He's allowed what is a normal act of excess libido turn into a rival for his wife so he's flat wrong.

Hope he will go to marriage counselling with you to someone who is qualified to deal with this.

I don't supposed that he is willing to give up access to porn, i.e. either put in an effective filtering system, no vcr/dvd, etc. These can be used as temporary crutches to lean on, if he's wants to get better.

@Rocky
Thanks for your quick post. What is your story?

@ Rocky who wrote- Of course, many women have fantasies and do solo sex as well. That's one thing that has puzzled me. Guys are far more driven to the visual stimuli than girls. Guys have 40X the testosterone than girls. So, why is all of this surprising? And aren't the ladies being hypocritical when many of them do the same thing, not as often, not with outright porn perhaps, but something "softer", and then go ballistic when they discover their hubby, boyfriend is an "addict"?

Using the we have more testosterone / men are more visual cards are just excuses or justifications for lack of self control that turns into a compulsive or thoughless act. I don't care what your gender is, hormone levels, fetishes, or fantasies are, or how often you do yourself--your either making a conscious choice to be mindful, protective, and respectful of the people you love through your actions or your not. You have the freewill to know the difference between right and wrong and act on that daily. Women can behave just as badly I agree. It's what's in your heart that matters most. Are your actions matching your words?

I don't think all women use soft core aides for solo sex. Your mind and imagination are far superior than any visual aid but thinking of your man or wife while doing solo sex is not being hypocritical. Many do that instead of what your suggesting. Most women don't mind their man doing solo self love if they are thinking of them exclusively or the two of you as a couple. We don't go balistic on you for wanting sex. That's natural. We are not always on the same page as to when and where we want it. It's when you bring in outside influences and other people where we get offended- go ballistic as you say.

You don't need others gettin in your business with your spouse...fake or not.. It's should be off limits. You can control your self at all times. Women like sex just as much as any man. Ask one - she'll tell you straight. It's very important but quality sex with a person you love is what your average woman prefers, it's not just about quantity. Keeping your sexuality exclusive even in your mind is very important to women. Men on the other hand have a track record of just the opposit. Men just choose not to stay sexually focused or pure because it takes no effort ( other than shamefully hiding it and finding a time to secretly do it ), society pushes it as the norm, and many feel they are entitled to it. They have and attitude that mulitple sex partners and sex outside of one's relationship is OK and is even celebrated amoung other men. Check out what the oldest book in the world has to say about it all. God's plan is amazing- simplistic to fallow - creates joy all around. How can you go wrong in that? Ditch the excuse people & be honest, be faithful to the one your loving.

Quoted by Rocky: "Hopefully most couples today are having an honest talk about this BEFORE they get married, as it is so prevalent."

@Rocky: Amen! You are more than correct as confession is powerful. I confessed not long ago to my girlfriend that I struggle and instead of breaking up with me (as I most likely deserved); she told me that she understands how hard it is for someone to break free (she read the books like "Every Young Man's Battle").

Since then, she now monitors me using X3 Watch (apart from two of my leaders at church) and I also gave her control of my internet filter so that I can only see what she is comfortable with me seeing on the internet (which is only things God would allow), which has greatly helped me in recovering. I noticed it was easier to stumble as it was all behind her back. It is now almost impossible to stumble as she is now aware of it and is 'watching me'.

I do recommend a pastor with you at the time of confessing to your girl and you should also already have started working on recovering, that way she knows you don't want to stumble anymore and tired of being addicted. A lot of the time; your girlfriend / spouse can really help you recover and stay on track, as she is the one you should be most concerned about hurting with your addiction. She is a great accountability partner who can really help you.

However, do not rely on her to be your source of breaking free (I know it's easy to do but you won't ever truly be free and will regret it in the end if you do); get into God's presence and fight with God with the knowing of your girl being aware of your struggling and 'watching you' via X3 Watch!

I pray I have helped some people here with that snippet of testimony.

Your's Sincerely in Christ Jesus,
Leigh Kennedy

Like most guys, I think I was exposed to erotica at a young age. I don't remember actually seeing images, but Dad always would look at Playboy magazine when I was young, so, I probably saw the racy covers. Mom I guess thought it would be funny to photograph him as he sat in the recliner "reading the articles", so she did.

After they got saved, when I was 13 all of that changed of course. They trashed that picture of Dad in his B.C. days. He became a strong Christian and worker for the Lord. I personally think he still found it tempting, but I never saw any actual evidence of that. He's deceased since '92.

Frankly, I don't remember really seeing much porn at all in our home even with Dad's magazine choice. The 'best' we had was either Sears Roebuck or National Geographic. It was about the time of his conversion that I was getting quite interested in sexual things... ah puberty. I remember visiting a bachelor's home with my Dad, and him keeping stacks of Playboy on the coffee table. I thought that's how to live it up. So, I did one of the scariest things a young boy could do. I decided to buy some soft core magazine from the local store. The clerk asked me about it, I told her it was for my uncle... that was probably a decisive moment, when I actually spent money on it that young.

My mind was always captured by the ideal of the beautiful woman, the fantasy woman, from a very young age. My mom was fairly artistic and I followed suit. When I was in my 20's I would spend time figure drawing and painting. I think a lot of young boys are in love with their mother when they're little, she seems so beautiful and wonderful to you. I used to ask her to draw my fantasy lady for me, with her hair over one eye, seductive. I was probably 8 or 9. I think that's at the root of sexual fantasies in men: a search for the primordial hunger for beauty, acceptance and pleasure. Next, I guess I'll be quoting Freud about the Id and Ego and how all boys want to kill their father and marry their mother... he went too far to be sure, but there was probably a kernel of truth to the viewpoints he formed.

I remember being in first or second grade and feeling strange disturbances as I walked past the covers of graphic novels or racy magazines in the newstand every week. It wasn't until I headed toward one of the mags when I was about 12 and the clerk told me, No, those aren't for you, the comic books are down there.
I was big on comic books.... I would be rich today if I had kept them instead of growing up like Dad insisted! Anyway, even comic books play upon boy's sex fantasies. This was in the middle of the sixties. They got racier all the time. I would fully expect there to be nudity and sexuality in the comic books today. Parents take note.
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My story: Saved for real, when I was 22. Went to university one year, Bible college 2 years. Never married until I was 34. When I was at the Christian university, I felt a more direct call to the ministry than I had before, and additionally, a call to be celibate. Boy, did I get questioned about that everywhere I went. So, I didn't date, but my interest in sex and females never went entirely either. Kind of like the tides, it would be strong at times and weak at others.

That should have been a sign that I had misinterpreted that "call" to celibacy, but like I told people then, maybe it was just temporary. So, I didn't start dating until I figured out I was wrong about that calling when I was 33! Met my wife-to-be around 6 months later (She was 22, a Christian but somewhat carnal. She didn't have the same holiness background that I was raised in) We married about 9 months later. (No we didn't have kids for another two years) Well, I suppose it came as a shock to her to marry a 34 year old virgin, at least in body. (Actually we had sex before marriage, but when our pastor found out about it, we were excommunicated until she found a place to stay) I guess it was an act of God that I remained a virgin that long. I suppose it was a blessing. But my mind says I got cheated out of a lot of fun all those years.

After the initial fun of real sex became more routine, I got back into porn little by little ...due to my wife, unbeknownst to her. When I married her, I didn't have a TV, so as not to fall into temptation and present a good witness to others. If I wanted to look at porn, back then, I would drive 50 miles away to a peep shop and hate myself all the way there and back, scared to death the whole time. I think I did that twice. I made some ventures of that nature locally, but was so scared someone who knew me from church would see me.

It was at the peep show, years before i got married, where I first saw an explicit X-rated film clip. That stuff is uncannily and inexplicably addictive. It's beyond stupid, there is no rationale to it. From a analytical viewpoint its a simple biology video. But, it seems to strike at the root of male sexual makeup and the desire for it becomes insatiable. It pours gasoline on the natural fires of sexual interest. You can control it for awhile, but it always would return. It is just like a drug addiction.

"Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied"- Proverbs 27:20

But, like I said, my new wife brought a TV back into my life, and then, a VCR.. need I say more. 10 years later she decided that I should learn about computers and started to bring home old IBM 8088's which I would figure out how to run and learn how to write a little "Basic" code. Finally, we got another used dinosaur of a machine that had something called a Netscape browser on it that took at least 3-4 minutes for it to load onto the monitor. Downloading one image could take about that long too.. 2 to 3 minutes.

But, that was the beginning to an irresistible temptation: The pleasure drug, dopamine via porn induced masturbation, self-administered, for free, at home, in secret, no traces of having used the drug...perfect and irresistible, except for the excruciating feelings of shame, torment, and spiritual failure afterwards. No wonder its epidemic today. No wonder the porn industry is stopping at nothing to get kids hooked on it younger and younger, to make it more and more acceptable. Someone wrote that our current generation is the porn generation, that we have been pornified (http://www.amazon.com/Pornified-Pornography-Transforming-Relationships-Families/dp/0805077456).


And its no wonder that there is a huge "adult" industry out there, because there's a lot of money to be made on this "love" drug. But, what is really amazing is that such a huge has grown up predominately to aid guys in masturbation. Now that is mindblowing. Until recently, it was easy for them to get guys hooked, and then to get them to pay for their need of a bigger and more hard core, and varied "fix".

Ask Christie Brinkley. If any man needed his head examined it was her husband. $3,000 per month on porn. WTH ! You get to have sex with Christie Brinkley dude.... *bonks head* But, his case as sordid as it was, should make it loud and clear to women out there, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU!! It's not that the spouse or boyfriend doesn't love you, think you're beautiful or sexy or desirable. If you make us angry, it might be about you one time. If you don't want to have sex that often, it might be about you. But, by and large, it is just "entertainment for men" just like it says on the cover of Playboy. Its a deepseated desire for beauty and pleasure, that is promoted by our bodies own internal pressure to have sex on a regular basis. If we don't pursue it in our waking hours, it will be forced upon us in our sleeping hours. Erotic entertainment is as old as the Egyptian dynasties and Pompeii. Its always been here and always will be here until the Lord returns. Even the Bible has erotic passages.

It's unbelievable that billions of dollars are being spent and thousands of women are wrecking their lives in this industry's full out onslaught upon the sexual innocency of our youth today. I used to be in accord with KBinAZ, determined to find a way to turn back the tide in my life and in the lives of those around me. I made sure that our home was protected at all times. But, was the weakest link there however. The reason I installed and tested well over a dozen filters and monitoring systems was really so I could find a way to guard myself against the "flesh" from being dominated by this old foe.

As I see it, the problem with filters and accountability is that it attempts to impose a solution from the outside. Its like being under the law of Moses trying to fence in the sin nature with a priestly fence. It never worked for most of them. Not until Jesus came and made it possible to be born again. This provided the real solution: an inside change where the laws could be written on the heart and thus bring the body under control to the spirit.

I left out playing "doctor" with neighborhood girl when I was 6 or 7 and being an occasional peeping tom during teenage years, and frottage with my horny sister when she hit puberty or being caught masturbating by my family more than once. All of these things are part of the makeup of what i assume was an average male's sex life. TMI ?

Anyway, I suffered mental anguish, personal embarassment, spiritual anxiety etc. over this for over 30 years as a devout Christian. Once it got started with the computer, that was it. I couldn't tell anyone. They knew I was concerned about it and talked to others about having a good filter. No one bothered to ask me if I needed help, though. So, when I hit a period of time of about a couple of weeks when I had given up, didn't even bother to erase my history anymore... (that's such an obvious clue anyway... uh, Dear, why is the history erased off the computer??) .. but my wife was computer illiterate, actually hated it. So, she thought our credit card bill was too high, her friend showed her how to look at history files, KA-BOOM !! I had never spent anything on it...not more than $3 or so, by accident. Even the site title she saw said "FREE pics". But, that didn't matter.

So, rather than try to make up a story, "somebody else did it", or "a virus or etc.", I was relieved to have it in the open, and decided to confess to her, that I had a problem with pornography since I was a young teen and had never been able to stop it despite all of my efforts to find good blocking methods and apply all I knew about God's word and power to my life. That went into taking the modem out of the computer, and months of counselling, accountablity.

A few years went by, but I don't think she ever got over it, and when an opportunity arose for her to be provided for by another man, her college professor!, she decided to kick me to the curb. I was struggling with pornography again then, even with an accountablility partner and filters and I had started giving up again that there really was a cure. We started drifting apart. Then she dropped the "D" bomb on me. I never really expected that because we're taught against divorce at church.

So, two years and $5,000 later, I found myself divorced, with joint legal and physical custody of my two girls and paying child support. She and I are back on good terms now. She's still my one and only and always will be (Matt 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, man must never separate.") But, we're not romantically involved. Don't know if we'll ever get back together, though she is interested.. I don't know how to go back again.. Can't trust her. Not interested.

That's part of my story. The rest of my story was a process of discovery about the truth about the Bible, masturbation and erotic material. I try to share those truths with people here so I can spare them a life time of hurt and bondage.

Hi my name is Betty.

My boyfriend who is 51, has a porn problem. He is a paying member of RedClouds.Com. He likes to sometime save pictures off of that site and also when he goes to Car Shows and Car Races, he also likes to take pictures of women's cleavage, their backsides.

I have spoken to him several times on how this makes me feel when he does these kind of things. I tell him that it makes me feel like I am not good enough and not only is he hurting my self esteem, he is hurting our relationship as well.

Here is what he had to say. He told me that he sees nothing wrong with looking at porn and that its just a guy thing. He has also told me that I had better quit snooping around on his computer and that this stops as of right now. He also said that it's none of my business of what sites he goes to.

This is also making me feel like he is seeing someone else and I am really having problems with trusting him now. I already have anxiety problems and him doing this to me, it is only making the anxiety worse.

What should I do about all of this?

Hi Betty,
You haven't mentioned whether your BF is a Christian or about your own faith. Also, are you in a sexual relationship with him. These elements could factor in to what people might suggest that you do.

I'm going to guess that your BF is not a Christian. He could have hidden things more from you and then you would have been more hurt by this. Since he has allowed this to be open or somewhat open in your relationship, I suggest you take him at his word, unless he gives you reason to think that he is doing some real-time cheating.

This could be his way of coping with his sex drive so as to remain in a monogamous relationship. He really is not interested at heart in other women; its just the male brain's demand for novelty.

Tell him you understand why he doesn't want to be spied on and that guys are always going to be attracted to pretty ladies. Ask him if he understands how you feel and what he thinks you should do about the pain it causes you... get him to see it from your viewpoint. How would he feel if you were doing the same things on a website catering to women?

He is being crude with photographing women at the car shows. My guess he's sharing those with people online, possibly for money. If he was a Christian, I think he would stop the picture taking and drop the website subscription. But, he will always be mystified by the feelings he has when he sees a beautiful woman. Ask Adam.




Hopefully, he won't go into secrecy as that could lead to worse things.

how can you make sure he's not looking at, since now everyone has access to internet from their Iphones? THat's what scares me!!

Well it seems my husband is leaving me. I just received his letter now. `He loves me but we are hurting each other too much` and because I won`t make the move, he is making it for me.

What do I do now

Hi Betty,

If you are a real Christian, drop your boyfriend now and cut your losses. Otherwise, you're in for a world of hurt from that man. If you're divorced from another man, don't even think of remarrying. Jesus is the man to make the treasure of your affections, and he won't be rude to you.

Your so-called boyfriend is right about one thing, though. Porn is pretty much a 'guy thing' - yeah, for those guys on their way to hell fire. Don't even date a guy who looks at porn.

I sometimes think that heaven will have a lot more women in it than men.

Victory in Jesus

Hi Cher,

I apologize for advice that will probably seem curt, but here it is: trust in God, forgive your husband and pray for his salvation, and don't remarry if divorce ensues.

Victory in Jesus

@ Rocky, grace is the empowerment to move past the bondage. Grace is Gods unmerited favor in your life that removes the desire for sexual sin. REMOVES THE DESIRE FOR SEXUAL SIN IN YOU!! REMOVES!!! Gone forever. We as human beings, DO WHAT WE WANT!!
If we dont want to do it, a gun pointed to our heads wont make us. If you want to give it up and give it to God, you will ask him for his grace to replace the desire in you. Your wife was wrong as well and had no other reason for her affair other than she wanted to. Divorce is allowed by the scripture if adultery is committed. Jesus said so,

Mathew 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery.

Fact of the matter is that men struggle more with it due to being visual and have a higher sex drive. But women also fall prey to the lie of pornography. Simple truth is that pornography is LUST plain and simple, it is Lust easily gratified and quickly satisfied with easy access and easy to conceal. That is why it is such a problem. And it doesn't have to cost money. So lust is insatiable, and Lust is in all people in one form or the other, Can you say no to food, can you say no to shopping, can you say no to gossip, drama, backbiting, trash talking, fighting, or violence? It is all the same lust just in different forms. We here are dedicated to the resolve of Lust in our lives, not porn, lust. It is the issue, and it is why the addiction occurs. Lust can never be satisfied.

@Sher, I just read the news. Frankly if he doesn't want to repent and change you are better off. Forgive him for the heart he caused you and ask the Lord that he give you eyes to see him as a lost soul who one day will face the Wrath of God unless he truly repents. And remember Repentance will be fruit, you will see true actions. No worries, God is in control. But do not let offense set in. Move on, forgive, forget and pray the Lord either comfort you in your celibacy or that he bring the man he has for you. And always hold out for Gods best. You have the freedom to remarry if you choose, and if so allow God to do the pickin, k?

@Betty, if he is a christian, he wouldn't believe he could look at that stuff and it be OK. Bail out, but if you are an unbeliever, and if you don't want to leave, then don't but be warned, it won't get better with that perspective. If you are a believer then you are commanded to stay away from him, as Paul said to not yoke up with an unbeliever, and with perspectives like that, he isn't one. and this statement by Rocky
"This could be his way of coping with his sex drive so as to remain in a monogamous relationship. He really is not interested at heart in other women; its just the male brain's demand for novelty.
Tell him you understand why he doesn't want to be spied on and that guys are always going to be attracted to pretty ladies. Ask him if he understands how you feel and what he thinks you should do about the pain it causes you... get him to see it from your viewpoint. How would he feel if you were doing the same things on a website catering to women?
He is being crude with photographing women at the car shows. My guess he's sharing those with people online, possibly for money. If he was a Christian, I think he would stop the picture taking and drop the website subscription. But, he will always be mystified by the feelings he has when he sees a beautiful woman. Ask Adam."

STUPID no way can you get out of bondage with that mindset. Rocky really needs to watch what he says, if it isn't SCRIPTURAL ADVISE, it isn't worth giving. Or reading for that matter. So Short answer betty, leave and knock the dust off your feet, without repentance it would only be a matter of time before he cheats on you.

@Oliver you cannot enforce the restrictions of celibacy on others, it sounds as though you have unforgiveness towards men and have sworn them off. Being hurt that badly sucks, and I am sorry for the offense the we (men) have caused you. But because you choose to remain celibate, due to bitterness of ministry only you know, but you shouldn't ever enforce your ideas on anybody nor recommend them. Scripture is the only opinion to have and as discussed before, if they leave a relationship that was wrecked by adultery and they had not committed sin, they are free to pursue another marriage if they so choose. Paul even encourages it in the book of TITUS. It is the transgressor who cannot remarry lest he stay an adulterer. I hope for shers sake and bettys they find GODLY MEN and experience the joy that marriage is when the man is submitted to the Lord.

SCRIPTURE IS ALL THERE IS, ALL ELSE IS OPINION

Hi my name is Erwin McIntosh III and I presently struggle with pornography. I have been delivered of the need to look at porn for two years now.While I still am challenged by the daily temptations of looking at porn what my deliverance has given me is the ability and the will to fight the urges. Before I was delivered the thought of porn and sex consumed me. It dictated and led my life and my wife was often in pain because of my actions.

One question I asked my wife recently was what it was like to be with an addict and is thata s hard as being the addict. It has continued to change my perspective on how she feels. Do I and my wife still struggle? Yes we do. Am I still tempted, of course. I have accountability partners, I have my wife and most of all I have my God, but everyday I strive to improve in my battle tactics against the devil.

Sometimes I lose, sometimes I fail but I am covered by grace, God's grace and the grace of those around me. I urge the wives and girlfriends and fiances to put it in God's hands and be more merciful. We know you're angry and you have every right to be. But if you become the haven you were meant to be of comfort and love then the men in your lives will change and they fight and they will succeed and more importantly, they will seek the Kingdom first.

Men I urge you to fight as well but make your focus on God, not your problem because then it looms over you. I was molested at six and introduced to porn at six and have been ensnared ever since. But I have only been fighting for two years. It's hard but God has a plan for me and all of you as well. I come to this site to fight even harder and at the suggestion of my wife. I hope we all can help each other under the blanket of love that our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ provides.

Forgiven_Forgiving,

On marriage, divorce, and remarriage

I do not 'enforce' anything here. I merely warn people that only death separates married people, making the survivor eligible for remarriage, and all remarriage while any previous spouse still lives is adultery.

In the old days we used to say, "till death do us part." We should go back to that. Here are the verses it was probably based on:

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man (Rom. 7:2-3).

And:

The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 7:39-40).

Jesus said that marriage makes two people into one flesh and that no man is to interfere with that union made by God as a result of vows made.

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (Matt. 19:5-6).

To me, the people who teach that it is godly to marry after divorce seem to be willing to nullify the commandments of God according to the traditions of men.

Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery (Luke 16:18).

Divorce is bad enough and God hates divorce on principle, but it is nothing, I suppose, compared to the hatred God must have for adulterous remarriage.

Matt. 19:9 only seems like an exception to the rule. Paul clarified the issue in 1 Cor. 7. First, Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 7 that we are not to be following the vain habits of unbelievers to 'look for the spouse of our dreams' or the spouse 'God has given us for a happy life.' Instead, Christian marriage is to ‘avoid fornication’. Christian marriage is a far cry more righteous than a romance novel.

We are told that it is better for our souls and for the kingdom's work to be unmarried and that we can do a better work for the Lord as unmarried (verses 32-33). Being unmarried is better for we have more time to give to the Lord’s work on earth toward the Kingdom. This life is the only time we will ever have to do the Kingdom’s work. And when we die that is when we enter our Lord’s rest.

In 1 Cor. 7:8-11, Paul is using a division of women into three logical categories, though they are not collectively exhaustive since they do not include women in adulterous marriages.

1) unmarried (or never married)
2) widowed (of all previous spouses)
3) married (she presumably in her first marriage and her husband presumably in his first marriage)

I don't use the term 'single' because in today's secular use all it means is 'not currently in a legal secular marriage' and thus a ‘single’ person is 'free to remarry'. That's a secular view not held by God. When a Christian divorces legally he or she is NOT single in the sense of being free to remarry, because only death breaks the marriage bond to God.

1 Cor. 7:1-9 says that Jesus gives the unmarried and widows permission to marry to avoid fornication (not to have a wonderful blissful married life). Then in 1 Cor. 7:10-11, the gist is: to the married, to stay with her husband, or if she separates from him (even going so far as to obtain a legal divorce) she must NOT marry another, but is allowed to go back to her husband (if possible).

Let's review Jesus's commands on this topic in the Sermon on the Mount:

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matt. 5:31-32).

First, Jesus did away with no-fault divorce, which seems to be popular in the secular world today. Second, Jesus retained one ground for divorce: fornication. But he disallowed any grounds for remarriage (to a third party) after divorce, calling it adultery. Divorced people are not eligible to marry someone else!

And what do we know about adulterers? ...but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge (Heb. 13:4).

If a woman is divorced she remains bonded to her divorced husband in God's eyes until he dies, at which time she becomes in God's eyes a widow.

Look at it this way: Marriage and the sexual activities that go with it is not a human invention, right, or entitlement. Instead, it is a privilege that God’s gives to humans under highly restrictive conditions spelled out in the New Testament. Unbelievers will not agree with this, of course, but I am not preaching here to unbelievers - or am I?

Victory in Jesus by obeying his commandments

I've read many of these accounts and I feel even more sick. I don't mean that in a judgmental way, I've been physically ill since the most recent "incident" occurred. I pray every day that God will get me through each day, He has. Now I must pray that I have the strength to keep my word to myself. I'm in a relationship with my fiance in which porn is a much larger and painful factor than I though ever existed. Its worse than alcoholism. The lies are bigger. Whether its him justifying his actions and lying to himself or not listening to how he's "unintentionally" inflicting painful wounds to me and our relationship. Not to mention how time spent looking at porn could be time spent refocusing on God to make each day better--at the very least our relationship.

He is a Christian. He can quote scripture in a way that amazes me. He is like a portable Strong's Compact Concordance sometimes. And he still believes that there is nothing wrong with looking at "artful" porn. (Yeah, he's admiring the bathing suit, lingerie, or shoes before they're gone. Or the scenery's real nice. Right. We have justification.) I asked why he hides it away, if he's not looking at anything bad. Textbook reply is, he doesn't want to make me uncomfortable. How is lying to me (and his seeming shame) comfortable? I know that if that's how he feels, I must run to the hills. Things will only get worse should we marry.

The strip club, oh that's just so he can meet with "people" that are "into that kind of thing". Right. Explain the $200 cash withdrawal verses putting the expense on a credit card so you can get the tax deduction, then. Its personal choice and how you carry yourself that becomes questionable. If you need to conduct ANY business in a strip club you should decide if you really want or need that person's money. Pray about it, if need be. God makes a way and I've never ended up in a strip club. I have all the skeletons in the closet to behave in a less than Godly way. Divorced parents, rape, alcoholism, intermittent drug use, a marriage that I had to end, people who solicited me to become a stripper promising large sums of money. I refuse to put myself down in such a way. Not even to the point of taping intimate moments in a marriage or any relationship. Its wrong, and its painful. I've walked on the road to Hell from time to time and done 180s repeatedly. I know what evil smells like, tastes like, sounds like, how it feels--disgusting and deceitful are not words even close. Evils appearance, well suffice it to say I've looked at people and seen nothing but rot and pestilence coming out and off of them at times. I've had to realize some people don't want to be saved and it pains me.

I'm still "caught in the moment", I suppose. I prayed for God's guidance as I do several times a day. Today God's answer to me was Psalm 31:2-4. I know God can shelter me come what may, I pray that he will spring the traps and provide shelter for my fiance. I learned something else good in a round a bout way...sometimes when you are in a relationship and you get mad its because you both want to be on that winning team, and you're just going about it a different way. I hope my fiance and I can be on God's winning team together. I pray for it, if its His will. I know my fiance is not a "bad" person, he just has some real big inner demons that he's fighting. I just pray he wins. Maybe then he will finally feel that he is on a winning team.

Please pray. Thanks in advance. Glory be to God.

Oliver
After that little rant, I would say that you are enforcing people not to remarry. You called people who have divorced and remarried fornicators and adultrers and that God will judge them and condemn them to hell. I don't care about your interpritation, it is incorrect and obviously your statments about having the right to live a married blissful life reaks of bitterness. A life in Christ is rest, and a life lived in the freedom and liberty of true relationship with Christ is the right to a blissful life, not because we don't face tribulation, but because we have already conquered tribulation through Christ. It is unfortunate for you that you belive that someone married can't be in their called life. Paul says he has the gift, and every one has a gift and they are not all the same. Furthermore Paul himself was married. According to jewish custom he was ready to be high priest, to even be in that line, you have to be married. Scripture never records his wife, but we know he had to have one. Probably after his life changing experience she said no way to being a christian and departed. From that point Paul had the gift of celibacy. To correct your doctrine, In corinthians 7 he says stay with the unbeliever if he wants to stay, and if he wants to leave then let him leave. And then he states a brother or sister is not under such bondage in such a cases. In other words the Marriage is null and void because the unbeliever departed. But he encouraged you may not know if and or when that person may change and so he then stated that God has called us to peace. Peace in the decision made. JESUS CHRIST SAID
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matt. 5:31-32).

You say no fault marriage, what do you think "saving for the cause of fornication" means? Not to insult your intelligence, but I am not sure you know how to read where an exerpt is inserted. It is the fault of the person who commits adultery. The context of the scripture is that the people where getting married having sex then getting tired of the woman and writing a letter saying I divorce you and then getting remarried. They used the law to legally fornicate!!
That is why the correction. He said in the beginning he made them male and female. God instituted marriage!! And if a man refuses to repent of his sin he is no longer a believer, because the word believer coincides with the term obeyer. If you believe, you obey, if you love me then you will follow my commandments. If not he not a believer, and Paul addressed this in 1st Corinthians 7. And Jesus said before, save for fornication. Which is to say if a man commits adultery and chooses not to repent, his wife is FREE to remarry WITHOUT CONSIQUENCE. HE however is not. You stated "To me, the people who teach that it is godly to marry after divorce seem to be willing to nullify the commandments of God according to the traditions of men. " But what you are spouting is the tradition of men.

Spouses if your Wife or Husband commits adultery and chooses not to repent they are an unbeliever and you are FREE to remarry if you are innocent of fornication yourself.

QUIT BLEEDING ON PEOPLE

SHer-

Sorry to hear that, but 7 years is a long time to go through what you've been through. Hope you don't have to divorce.

Just ask God to help you through each day. If you need a lawyer get the best that you can afford.

Isaiah 26:3; Proverbs 3:5-6; Mark 11:25

@ Forgiven_forgiving

I can't say why Oliver went into that discussion, but I'm of the same opinion.

Jesus specifically opposed both of the Jewish Rabinnical schools of the day. One said 'unfaithfulness was grounds' another said "for any cause". When they questioned Jesus about it (Mark 10:2), He said Moses had permitted divorce due to the hardness of your heart ( they could not be born again prior to the resurrection). But as he stated to them in verse 6-12, God's plan for marriage was that the two are now "one flesh", "therefore, what God has joined together, man must NEVER separate. (the words are in the imperative)" In the New Testament our hearts are not hard any more, so the permission to divorce was rescinded by Christ. Evidence: Mark 10:2-12; Luke 16:18; Romans 7:2, I Cor. 7:10,11 and 39.

Why then is there an exception in Matt 5:32 and 19:9, you may ask? Notice that the exception IS NOT for ADULTERY. It is fornication. This was a concession to Matthew's Jewish audience, just like the Jerusalem decision in Acts 15 was a concession to Jewish scruples about marriage. (Thus, since you don't find this exception in Mark, Luke, Romans or Corinthians it is obvious that Jesus did not state this Himself. Matthew added it as an explanation for the Jewish laws of marriage.) To the Jews, fornication included: if a girl had sex while she was betrothed, they would divorce, the marriage was annulled. The man would be free to marry. (Example: Joseph and Mary) If a person found out that they were about to marry a close relative, this would be considered fornication. We call it incest, and the marriage would be annulled, because God would not sanction that union.
How do we know that it wasn't an exception for adultery?

#1 The reaction of the disciples: They were shocked that it was marriage was so restrictive and said it would be better not to marry than to get married with likely possiblility of divorce if it were desired.

#2. The penalty for adultery was the death of the guilty parties. After your spouse dies for adultery, then you could remarry.

#3. Christians are commanded to forgive anyone who repents to them. When we forgive someone, the matter is over. Thus, the matter of fornication is an issue causing an annulment. Jesus would never contradict Himself in this. He insisted that He was giving a new and correct ruling :"But, I say unto you" "let not man put asunder, i.e. Man must not divorce." Mark 10:9.

Paul never repealed these rules. He said the same thing: Christians do not divorce their mates: I Cor.7:10-11. The only thing he allowed was, to tell believers if their spouse didn't want to stay married to go ahead and let them go. Don't fight their wishes in other words. The rule for Christians not to divorce given in verses 10-11 were unchanged, even if the spouse was an adulterer.

He permitted them to separate. If the wife did divorce, she was only allowed to remarry her husband, assuming he hadn't married in the mean time. (verse 11; Deut.24:3-4)

Your point that if a spouse enters an adulterous relationship and doesn't repent, then that spouse is no longer a believer, may be technically true, though we are not allowed to judge their heart. However, there is still no permission given to divorce this "unbeliever". If they leave and divorce you, that's their business. You don't have to fight to get them back, because you don't know whether you could have led them to Christ or not.

Some say the believer is free to remarry if divorced by an unbeliever. The preponderance of all the scriptures and the stated law of Jesus Himself says the two are one flesh in God's eyes until death.

OOPS Correction

A little correction: "#1 The reaction of the disciples: They were shocked that it marriage was so restrictive and said it would be better not to marry than to get married with no likely possiblility of a divorce if it were desired"

I realize this a hard word for some. Now, you know why the disciples reacted as they did.

Praying for Reprieve.

Sorry to hear all you've been through.

Perhaps you can ask your pastor to intervene.

Here's how. Explain to your husband that the strip clubs are offensive to you, and ask him if he will stop going to them. If he refuses, read him Matt. 18:15-17, reading to him where the Bible says for you to get witnesses of your asking him to repent. If he refuses, tell him you want the pastor to come to the house to help you deal with your disagreement.

Your husband may not like this, but he has to submit to pastoral authority (Heb.13:17).

You're a strong lady. I know with Christ you can make it through this and find an accord.

Its this society that's causing everything. This government, this economy. This belief that everyone is free to do what ever they please. Unmoral people, who today see porn as a norm and religion as something for nut jobs. In movies, sex scenes are norms as well and no movie is a good movie if there isn't one. The media promotes fornication on a regular basis, brainwashing your children to believe that instant gratification and being like everyone else and doing what everybody else is doing is more important than individual values such as absitnance. It is satan's influence. The media, this government, and this capitalist economy are the mechanisms throughwhich satan spreads his influance. That is what stems everything. Why porn? because we have allowed it by years and years of us peoplebeing fed propaganda. Take individual responsability and take control of the self...

@ Rocky

The problem is worse, he has brought the strip club into the house, per se. He looks at pornographic sets of photos with the same women in various states of disrobing and then looks at the videos if he really likes the woman's appearance. He has who knows how much access to it through the internet cellphone and high-speed internet. He keeps his computer and phone locked at all times and doesn't want anyone near either of them. Who knows how he has hidden his "favorites" onto his hard drive.

I know in my heart that you are right, a minister needs to be involved. I told him I wouldn't marry him until we had gone to marriage counseling through the church. Pretty much marriage "basic training". I know you cannot stand on the shifting sand. He does too, but turns his back as we all do from time to time.

Sometimes I just wish that he would pay attention, or acknowledge, the voice in his head. He blocks it out most of the time unless its feeding some earthly matter. He's never seen love and understanding in a stranger's eye, being God in that person. All I can do is pray that he stops the feeding until he can see and hear and feel God all around him. One can only pray.

I just pray that if God means for us to be together he will repent as I've had to do myself. I pray that he'll realize that there's a bigger and better goodness waiting for him if he'd redirect his focus. Lately all I can do is pray and seek guidance in Scripture and support. Our Father is truly great. He keeps me going when I feel I've lost all strength.

Truly, Glory be to God.

@ Rocky, I will state one more thing, and end it there, because there is no point in arguing with any person who

1) doesn't know the heart of God
2) isnt living free under the law of liberty and peace
3) Doesn't think the word of God is infallible.

Anybody who doesnt think the WORD Of God is infallible or incapable of error is decieved and lost. You cannot state the the word if God is Diety in some parts and then not necessarily diety in others. For example you cannot say that what is written is sometime written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,and sometime some one just added to it. You are Lost and because of this perspective you can think that the Word is whatever you want to make it. You either take it as a whole directly from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and follow all its commandments and understand that the Word is to be taken in its entirity or not. Any one who has any questions feel free to ask me @

baylorministriesinc@hotmail.com

I wanted to tell the group what I have found to be helpful through this. If you have been following my thread you may have seen that my husband told me he is leaving me this weekend. He is tired he says of never being good enough (porn, etc) and that I haven`t lost the weight he wanted me to up until now.

He is now in a very deep depression and suicidal.

I have been praying and asking the Lord to reveal to me what I have done that I need to ask his forgiveness for. God revealed to me while I journaled that I have added to his addiction by saying things that increased his shame. I was reminded of the terrible things I have said to him in deep hurt, anger and desperation. I`m not by any means letting him off the hook for his behaviors, but I am accepting and acknowledging and asking forgiveness for mine. It is so hard for the spouses and girlfriends of porn addicts to see their wrong when you feel so hurt to a depth you never had imagined possible. How could I be sorry for anything! But God revealed to me that I am not blameless and my husband needed to hear that. He needed to know that I share some of this `our `burden. He told me to love on him with all I`ve got.

I realized how much I have cut off from him. He would be so sorry and want to hug me, and I would give him a one-arm hug, I would pull back when he kissed me, I would actually stop myself from the impulses I had to reach out or say something loving just because I had convinced myself he didn`t deserve my love.

In doing this I have hurt myself. I have detached myself, and have boxed all my feelings in.

I decided to myself that I was going to stop this behavior. I told him all the things I have done to add to our problems, I told him how sorry I was. Regardless of how angry and hard he is right now I am reaching out. I am hugging him at every opportunity, telling him I love him (instead of keeping those thoughts in my head), I have dragged him up from the basement bed where he wished to reside and told him that I want him with me, and want to be there for him, and that I`m going to keep loving on him regardless if he reciprocates or not.


Up until now, I`m not getting too much response, but I feel better. I have found myself again. I like me again. I feel less hopeless.

Who knows, i may be back on here crying a river next week when he still leaves me, but for now I feel some peace and that is definitely worth something.

@ Sher

Way to go! That is awesome and thanks for sharing. I have found myself in past dating relationships often at fault for going off in anger while still "in the situation" before my mind had a chance to engage. As I realized I was not only hurting those people by not praying for and allowing myself to forgive and forget in that order; it caused communication to shut down and relationships to fail. Years ago I started saying (when very angry), "Please, I need to be alone for a little bit. When we have both calmed down, I'd like to talk about this. I don't want to say things that I really don't mean, just for the sake of anger." It was amazing how well that statement has worked.

Didn't save my marriage, however, greed on his part and fear of being alone resulted in him attacking me and threatening my life (I had buried my dad the day before his most violent and physical attacks). He was angry and wanted to fight and I walked away unheard by him to get something out of the car. We'd already been to marriage counseling, he was last to come and first to leave. He didn't respect himself. I know this because he didn't respect my family or his to a lesser extent. He couldn't control his porn addiction, his greed, his desperation, his fears and had no interest in going to church. I went alone to church when I did go. (I have some physical impairments that slow me from time to time.)

I know that in spite of that, I still lose control of myself once in a while. I am only human. When I back myself into that corner again, I stop and pray. My next thought is to either type or text my fiance to apologize without condoning his behavior for my own acts. Then I remind him that I chose him for a reason, just like he chose me for a reason--when we're not mad, we see the overwhelming good in each other.

I will pray that this technique you've mastered will work well for you. I trust it will. I will pray that God heals your hearts and the wounds of the addiction. I think you're on to the right path, the one of prayer. God put you together and it sounds like part of the hard work is convincing your husband that he is worth loving. You are on the road to healing like the rest of us. Maybe your husband won't be far behind. I believe that in his heart of hearts, your husband knows that you are the one he can't live without-along with God. Good luck on your journey. God bless and keep you both.

Glory be to God.

"Porn is really about something so much deeper. It’s about fears, insecurities, pain, and a million other things that develop from a desperation to feel whole."

Or maybe masturbation is just fun.

I viewed pornographic material a couple of years ago in excess of what any decent person should. I met an amazing woman through school and gave up all of that in favor of being with her so she would know how much she meant to me, and that no one else compared. Early in our relationship, i revealed to her that i had viewed said material after leaving the last girl i was with, but never hinted at how much. I put it behind me, though she still pondered about it and brought it up on the occasion (as she hates any and all forms of adult "entertainment"). I never looked at porn and did every thing that i could to let this woman know that i had buried my evil past and moved on to the greater things that being with her entailed. after being with her for in excess of a year she found herself very self conscious and worried that i would turn to other woman or porn again. In a heated conversation with her one night, i entailed just how many times i may have viewed such material in the year following my previous relationship, and she melted down. It was way to much for her and it flooded her head with more insecurities and came very close to ruining us. Even though it was before her and I were together, and was more then a year in the past, it hurt her tremendously deep.

Nothing i will ever do will be able to erase from her memory the pain and misery I induced. She often shutters to think of how many woman I've seen, and if i remember anything of it or think of it. No matter how hard i try, beg, plead, or what have you, i will NEVER be able to make her feel completely better about it again. And definitely nothing on this planet or any other will aid me in forgetting the tears she shed, the look in her eyes or the sorrow she detailed to me. I'm extremely thankful i've been given the chance to show to her how serious i am about her and no other, just one more thing on a mile long list of how amazing she is.

I've never been addicted to porn, or any other substance for that matter. But i can assure any man out there questioning whether or not he should (or has the strength not to) pop in that DVD or punch in that URL to his favorite freebie site that he SHOULD NOT. he should consider the heart of the woman he is with and loves, or could be with and love. I never thought at the time that what i was doing could hurt someone so special and close to me years down the road after, but it did and i will always regret what i have put her through. I can guarantee that any man among us with as close a tie to this girl as i have would feel close if not equally as resentful towards them self.

To all the woman out there that have or are being hurt by this awful creation of man, I apologize. I believe very much that every man who has or will do this does a grave indecency to each and every one of you. I regret supporting the "industry" that is causing you so much pain, and you ALL deserve MUCH MUCH better then that. There is someone out there that will treat you with the respect that every person alive has equal opportunity to. There is nothing that i can do, try as i will, to undue what i have done, to unsee what i've witnessed. The only thing i can do to show how i feel, to give back to all those that i have hurt, the woman i love and all others across the globe suffering this, is to love the woman i am with. To treat her with the respect and honor that a person such as her deserves, and to not have my gaze settle for anyone or anything else.

I would encourage any man alive to do the same, and any woman for that matter. Treat each other with respect, and if you find yourself without a partner to give yourself too, WAIT.

they will come, and you will be much happier with them if you save yourself until then. don't cloud your mind with useless visuals and fantasies, share with someone that matters to you.

Men, think about what you are doing to yourself, to those you love, and to those you don't even know. Respect them all.

Woman, I'm sorry, and i'll make it up to all of you by making it up to her.

Josh

I was overweight for a long time and now I'm very fit and people think I'm handsome but I still struggle with porn. I felt rejected and alone for years not feeling confident enough to start a relationship with anyone. Ofcourse I still had sexual urges even more so with increased health and labido. It doesn't seem like I ever get a straight answer about what singles should do about sexual urges. People struggle with booze, drugs, food and porn and even other things. It feels good, it helps us deal with lonliness and emotional pain. That's why we do these destructive things. I would think or hope that the more loving and open compassionate and forgiving you are with each other the more you'll both be able to help each other deal with your addictions. Still addiction is complicated isn't it. Sometimes we can know what to do and still not do it. For me eating lots of fiber bars along with sensible eating helped me control my hunger. Going to the gym helps me stay motivated to exercise. I hope staying on christian websites and finding good relationships will help with the porn thing. God bless.

Dave,

This is what singles should do about sexual desires:

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).

Victory in Jesus

Please could someone offer me a definition of pornography?
My husband has looked at pictures on a website called 'deadskirts', he has for many years had the temptation to fantasise about a tribe of bare-breasted female warriors, who fight with men but always lose. He has written a story in which the females' are always mortally wounded in breasts, bellies, navels, nipples or cleavages. (The men's wounds are few and receive little description) The arousal comes from the blood flowing from the wounds and often from their mouths, trickling or frothing red as their lungs are pierced, as well as from the descriptions of the women's bodies, especially breasts and their very personal wound sites.
He says it is not pornography. I would be interested in knowing please what others think makes something pornographic? In other words, when does porn become porn?
Thanks, Ann

I think the broadest definition of porn would be any material created for the purpose of inducing an erotic reaction, or to make one horny. The usual definition of porn involves nudity. Some erotic material however is not created for the purpose of of making someone horny such as a National Geographic with pictures of indiginous tribe women. However these magazines were still used for that purpose by many people. Some people have some very strange fetishes and are sexually aroused by things that most people would never consider erotic. I've heard of people who are sexually aroused by file cabinets. In this case they could use an Office Depot catalogue as porn. So while most porn is created for the purpose of being used as porn, the user can also turn something not intended as porn into porn.

@ Ann

K9 web protection categorizes the website you named as pornography, so while there must be erotic content there. What little I saw of it was stupid depictions of clothed models having been shot or killed in some way.

Anyone with this type of fantasy needs help in my opinion. Ted Bundy spoke specifically about this to Dr. Dobson before his execution. Additionally, men who grow up to abuse children or women typically have violent behavior in the past, whether it was cruelty to animals while they were growing up or fantasies of harming other people. Murder is a horrible event; no one can justify being pleasured by such a thought or reenactment.

@ Dave Odds are you are called to live a married life. Ask God to lead you to meet the right person, and go out to find your mate. Go to church until you find the church that you feel at home in.
As to pornography, you'll have to make your own decision. Are you of age? Does it go against your religious beliefs. Are you dependent upon it? Perhaps you can find a mature Christian to confide in.

@Josh Your post sounds fake. pretentious. the supposed girlfriend is exceedingly insecure. you didn't talk about your sex life with her. If there is one, tell her you were simply cramming for your finals with her.

Sorry if that seemed crude. I found his post annoying and absurd.

I agree that Josh's post sounds more like it was written from the point of view of an insecure woman who has been hurt and is unable to forgive. I'd say that more guys in a relationship look at porn with the intention that it will help them not to stray outside of marriage than with the intention of hurting their partner. But yeah still sin.

Do men and women have a different opinion of porn? Even though its sin I would consider it far worse to cheat on my wife than to look at porn.
Sometimes I want it and she don't. Sometimes we are just goin through a rough spot. Who doesn't. She has her soaps and those stupid romance novels which I think are porn for women because its still indulging a fantasy which is sinful.
Maybe I should be all hurt and unforgiving cause she likes that junk or used to like it. I think she's given up alot of that crap after I burned all my porn.
1 cor. 7:3 The bible has some good stuff to say about a man's body belonging to his wife and a woman's body belonging to the husband. I think that means you should help satisfy your spouses urges when they got em.
You see alot of ppl on the net who take that out of context thinking it means a woman is a guys property or the guy can make her his sex slave. If you can't talk to each other and be honest and forgive your done.
Anyone else done this? I took some sexy nude shots of her. now thats my porn if I'm gonna be away from her a while.

I mistakenly believed this to be a good place to state what i now feel about what i have done to someone that i love very very much. I never expected, on an anti porn addiction website run by those of christian faith, to be RIDICULED and called absurd and fake for believing strongly that Porn hurts woman. I said what i believed and shared a true life experience hoping that anyone going through rough times considering porn might read it and say "hmm, i how others might feel about this? i wonder if anyone might be hurt," and possibly deter them from causing the pain that i caused my love.
My girlfriend and i have a very healthy sexual relationship that has nothing to do with cramming for finals. Is this not a place for people who are insecure about why their men are watching these things to voice that and receive comfort? yet you tell me she is "exceedingly" insecure. who are you to judge who is "exceedingly" insecure? there is a whole segment of this site dedicated to woman voicing their questions about the subject. Are all of them exceedingly insecure? is the name of this thread not "why porn?" about why men watch porn? questioning what it could be that wasn't good enough about a woman that would cause her man to be addicted to porn?

your comments to my posting my views on the subject matter make me question what you really think about woman that suffer because of this sinful urge that men take too. how many of them don't deserve to feel badly because you think it's in excess?

i'll find another anti porn forum that is actually against the subject matter and there for the woman hurt by it.

Hi Josh,

Sorry, didn't mean to tear you down. Trying to get a handle on your post. I thought it was a little dramatic. Thus, I wondered if you were sincere. It seems that you were. Now, I know how to respond to your post, if I should choose to.

We're just strangers passing in the night here. The guidelines for posting are here: http://xxxchurch.com/prayerwall/comments.php?DiscussionID=10&page=1#Item_0

Excerpt: "While X3Church is a Christian based ministry, we will not "impose" our beliefs on you in this forum nor ask you to adopt or adapt to them here. We will offer you the same freedom in this forum, respecting that there will be those who come here that do not share our Christian values/beliefs. However; all members are expected to adhere to the following guidelines:

Please refrain from flaming, personal abuse, or cruel attacks, as well as posting insults that are racial, ethnic, gender-based, refer to political or religious affiliation in a derogatory way, or any other personal discriminations."

In short, we're allowed to present varying points of view, but we are to be respectful.

You obviously feel strongly about this, so why not hang out here some more sometime. I agree with you that there should be honesty between lovers and great respect for all women. Perhaps we'll talk some more.

Peace, your brother,

Rocky

P.S. Most of the guys on here are dead set against sex before marriage, so fair warning.

Thank you Rocky and Dave, and anyone else whose answer I haven't yet found, for attempting to answer my impossible question! I do know what it is but I am searching for the right words to give a simple definition to my husband, who says he doesn't think that what he has is porn.
I don't want to seem hair-splitting, but I think the word is used in two main ways, one to mean the material used - often sexy pictures but as you say it could be a filing cabinet, and secondly to mean the act itself, harder to define what that is if the person is not masturbating (I'm not sure but I don't think he does).
I am trying to find a definition which clearly includes the second meaning. I want to get across to him the message that it is the 'doing' of it which hurts me and makes me feel that he is 'seeing someone else' - well he is, in his head isn't he?
Sorry this is so long, anyone who has had the patience to read this far! Do you think it would be correct to say 'porn is anything - other than one's spouse - which is used to get sexual arousal'?!
Hey - maybe that's it! Have I found it?! Can I tell him (at the right moment!) that if he deliberately gets sexual arousal from it then by definition it is porn?

@ Ann

Well, your definition would probably be considered sound by most people.

An actual definition is: "Creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire".

The website you listed is not a porn website, it is a discussion board; however there are links posted there to pornography.

The fetish pics that are on the site for the most part are laughable "B" movie material and the kind of stuff that a kid growing up in the 60's could have first learned about his sexual feelings, though in an unpleasant place. Fetishes are beyond my range of study, but I believe that is really the most important thing going on here. You might want to talk to him about why he likes seeing these images, and wonder if you should be concerned that he would ever act on these things. If it was me, I would get on some psychology study websites to learn what causes these things and if you should be concerned, what to do, etc.

He is correct when he tells you it isn't porn; however, if you are persuaded that he uses it to "get off' in some sense, then perhaps its a case of "porn" being defined by the user, the purpose to which he puts it. Normally, this is to excite the mind enough to produce an orgasm, i.e. masturbation, or as a stimulus to sexual intercourse.

I think you said you've been married a long time, and if this the extent of your husband's interest in erotic things, you are very fortunate by comparison to most ladies here.

He knows that what he is looking at is of a prurient nature, so its a little bit embarassing and personal to him. It sounds like you know quite a bit about his fantasy stuff and I would take that as a good sign that he's trying to be honest with you. So perhaps as you take this one step at a time you'll come up with a resolution that will satisfy both of you.

If you find that you still don't feel at peace about it, ask him if perhaps you can bring someone else in that would respect his privacy to broker an agreement. I think taking a kind and humble approach will eventually win him over.

@ Brad- you wrote-I agree that Josh's post sounds more like it was written from the point of view of an insecure woman who has been hurt and is unable to forgive. I'd say that more guys in a relationship look at porn with the intention that it will help them not to stray outside of marriage than with the intention of hurting their partner. But yeah still sin.

Just because a woman is hurt by your porn use, does not make her insecure as you claim. Your fantasy is in no way keeping you from cheating on your partner. Explain that to me.
Pretending, wanting, or acting on having a sexual encounter or experience with some other woman's sexuality / body/ pics. etc. is cheating. Shows you can't be trusted to do the right thing- be her man, and her man only at all times. It has nothing to do with her self image, emotions, etc. But it does make her feel bad by knowing that you did it, and want it. You have a woman in your home, that does sex, maybe not on your time line always, but she is there for you. Why you looking outside that for a good time? It crossed a line of decency in her eyes as to what it means to be married. Sex and love are not seperate.

Nothing you can say will justify it as good or right. It's your attitude that you even need to see that and do that to get off that pisses her off, saddens her, or makes her upset. You are already straying from your relationship with photos and etc. of other women. How is that keeping you in line as being a married man who loves his wife fully? What a crock. Variety, boredom, fantasty, fetish, etc. All excuses as to making that acceptable as a tool for men to drool.

I think if your woman can be happy with just you, you should at least show her the same level of respect and commitment. IF you can't and need that to keep you in line your trying to blame it on her by saying she's insecure with her body or emotional hurt. She doesn't give a rats ass what those chicks look like or do. They want to be trash and flash HO's so be it. If you wanted that type of woman maybe you should have dated one before asking this one out who values her body. You need to decide do you want class over trash, quality / love with sex or quantity false intimacy one sided solo sex. Decide - do I love this person enough to be exclusive with my sesual energy to them? Isn't that what makes a couple special and purely one? To keep that to themselves and not share that lust with anything or anyone else.

If that were your daughter would you want some dude using her like that or treating her like you are treating your relationship? Would you tell you own DNA- just get over it honey it don't mean nothing. He's just being a man. Men like looking at parts. It's a tool for Keeping it at home by looking at fantasy sex.? I would hope not. What would that say to your child? Women are for enterainment, are to be valued for their sex appeal , size, and shape far more than thier brains, hearts, or joy they bring to the relationship. It's just a little hurt honey.. It all adds up into one big lie.

All people are visual, all people like sex, have lustful desires and want to be needed. By doing that you are showing you don't really care how your actions effect her personally, spiritually, or emotionally. It's all about you and your need to feel manly or validated. Your temporary need to climax when she's not meeting your needs. Marriage is not about what the other person can do for you. It's about loving them fully. Being selfless, committed fully, and faithful. It's not some temorary gig till the next best thing jiggles her goods in your face. Why you need other chicks to stroke your ego is what she has a problem with. You found your mate in life..now quit being a part time lover, half assed in your commitment to her , and just be her man. That is what angers women about porn. It's not really the images.

We all have a sexy side and are doing it visually for someone out there. it the choice you made to go there in the first place. Why? Because you like it. Well I got news for you - women like looking at men's bodies too. How do you think she found you. Do you want her using men equally for her solo pleasure, develping an eye for all things not you physically? Maybe camparing you to other men's parts? Would it anger you or make you feel a bit self conscious about your sexual side or performance?

You are showing you are not being loyal, committed, or trustworthy. Your open to sex outside your relationship by using porn in general. You are usuing another woman's sexuality not hers. That is the defining turn off and hurful aspect. You are telling or showing her through your actions that she is enough / it screams she is not good enough to be faithful and loyal to her at all times. Lame excuse to justify it. Your either into her totally or not. Pics / flics/ and HO cyber chicks are off limits to you both if your really not wanting to stray outside of / or screw up your relationship.

She is not jealouse of those girls. She is probably a very confindent woman whos beutiful as well. She's more pissed off at your for not being exclusive and loyal. Wedding vows say - forsake all others, not just temporarily until I'm bored, or life gets our bedroom activities out of synche, or I just am tired of the same ol same ol. You can be a good guy or not. Be her man totall , exclusively, or not. Not is what your actions show by using that to jack off to.

It may be she knows her worlth and says- hey this is not helping us in anyway. I find it disrespectful, rude, and unaccpetable. If you want to continue to sleep with me- see my sexuality in it's full blown glory- then ditch your attitude and excuses and just be fully commited and exclusive to me. Dreaming about, playing around with fantasy chicklets says to her- YOur just not that into her anymore. She is no longer your focus or priority and that if the opportunity presented itself to cheat. you'd be all over it just like you are with your porn. YOu just straight up prefer it, can't seem to wrap your brain around the idea that women are not to be used as sex toys and for entertainment. That is not being insecure with one's self.

Guys and girls, you lot seriously need to go outisde. Porn is fun, Porn is good, just becuase your all 'Goodie goodies' doesn't mean you can interfear with other peoples porn addictions!

I don't know what else to do. I suppose leave him. Every time I look at him I want to vomit. There's no talking. The only change is that now every thing on the tv is more of the same in a different wrapper. I'm praying and hoping to be the person I need to be, but I feel like I'm losing. I'm not sleeping now. I cry because I can't believe the lies he tells himself before he tells me. I cry because my heart aches and I wonder if I'll ever find the "one".

@praying for reprieve

Hi again! My heart breaks to hear what you are saying because I too have experienced this betrayal with porn and alcohol. The pain penetrates so deeply I remember going to my doctor and asking him if he could give me something that would induce a temperary coma like state. I know their lust can be sickening and you feel like he never has loved you, but I know you know this in your head (not your heart), but he does love you but he is lost right now. It is like you know this secret about him that he doesn't know yet.

Do you have a pastor that you can talk to who might talk to him? This is a biblical way of dealing with things and from my personal experience this has worked in a wonderful way.

As much as these men do not feel lovable right now, more than anything they need to know that God loves them, and to hear that from someone with whom they respect in the church, that is a great thing.

Our pastor has set up a relationship between an older man (father figure) in the church, who is retired and has the gift of breathing christian love into a younger man's life, keep him accountable and be a mentor for him. Often men with this issue were robbed of fatherly relationships or have been hurt deeply by the men in their life that should have been there for them.

My husband now meets with the pastor several times a week (he is out for brunch with him now as we speak), and is in contact with this older gentleman too. My job is to just love on him and I continue to pray for that ability, and you know...it is still awesome. I have found myself again...that loving, trusting woman who I love and admire....she's back. My husband is amazed by who I am again, and is loving me more an more (and it has only been a week since he planned on leaving me...remember?

I know my husband is human and he may fail here and there, but the best thing in all of this is there are others in his life to deal with that now....I just need to be the wife I am supposed to be. Oh the burden that has been lifted, I can't tell you the relief I feel.

When I hear that inner voice begin trash talking my husband or myself, I tell it off. I just keep telling myself how good it feels to just love, I then pray and give it to God.

I know this sounds all rather spiritual and un human to some degree, and believe me for the the last 7 years, that has not been who I am, but this is a total change for me, and it is the most amazing thing I have felt the Lord do in me. Makes me want to just keep getting closer to Him and my husband.

Anyway, I hope this give you some hope! I will keep praying for you!!!

With Christ's love,
Sher

I recently wrote a little about my story and got a response from Oliver & Rocky... Thank You. But let me clear up a few things here and explain my situation a little better. I am married and have been for 13 years. We have 2 children together. (10 & 5) My husband was never straight up and honest with me about his porn addiction. He works at night and I work during the day. I currently have a block on my computer and cable television to prevent most of any type of pornography images. He has never tried to order ot by any type of porno I/m sure because I am the one who does all the billing he knows that I would find out, but I have seen when it hasn't been deleted that he didi in fact go on porn sites on the computer. Also I have seen where he view different bikini and model shots and or movies on the tv. After several different times confronting him and he denied it then finally one day he actually admitted to it broke down, started to cry and said that this has nothing to do with me it's a problem that he's had all of his life. I always felt maybe it was something that I did or didn't do to satisfy him? Maybe because I gained some weight after our kids? He said no that it was him, he was the one with the problem. I then told him that he needs to seek counseling. He says that he was too embarrassed, that he has never told anyone else besides me about this dirty secret. Since then there has been times when I find things and we argue, don't speak for a couple of days, but then it's ok again. The trust for me in that is completely gone though. I feel that when I don't find things, maybe he has just learned to hide them a bit better? This is not a problem that will go away by itself and I know that. I feel it will get worse to the point in which he will be unfaithful to me again with someone outside the house. He has had one affair that I know of that happened 5 years ago. He actually came to me about a couple months after he asked me if he had affair could I ever forgive him? I said I didn't know? I was really hurt and still have questions about that now, but took him back because I felt that our marriage was worth fighting for and that I had some type of hope since he did come to me and tell me. He said he had to because I have been so good to him and our children and the guilt was eating him up. I am a christian and do continually pray for our marriage, our children and family to stay together. He has fell apart from being a christian and wants no part of it. I called one counseling partner she was very critical and said that by me putting blocks on the computer and tv I was being his mother. I should put up with that. Then my pastor at my church said that he thought it was a good thing becuse I am helping him while he can't help himself. I don't know what's right??? Please give me advice on what to do, where to start.
Anxiously waiting your response...

A child of God

@ Sher

Thanks. I'm hoping that one day he will go to church. That day may be tomorrow. I pray it will be. We've been offered by his friend to go to church with him and then go over to his friend's house for the game. I think this would be good for us.

As far as finding a pastor, well I haven't had the best of times in churches most of my life. I got tired of hearing about money every other sermon. Then I couldn't find a bible study group I could enjoy. In both instances I felt like I was going to a party more so than a church. So for years its been me and my personal experiences with God, his messengers and the Spirit. It has worked for years for me, kind of. I say kind of because I know that I need to be with the real church to give and take. I'm realizing however that he requires a more disciplined religious experience. I just watched him beat the tar out of a bible in a fit of rage recently. That really scared me, even though I know he was just having a fit of anger. I've never seen anything like it in all my life. So maybe tomorrow will be an opportunity to find a body that we seem to fit in to.

There is an older man that lives in our neighborhood that has encouraged us to go to "Christ Renews His Parish" through his church. By the time we got on the list it was too late and all the spots were filled. So perhaps next time. However this older neighbor of ours has offered to let him come and visit in his home. He is an artist and has many things they could do together other than just sit so that there is more than just a story being exchanged. We have three other men that have invited him to their homes to talk and share things as Christian men. He's just not interested right now. I hope he will go.

As for me, when I get mad I try to silently get up and go do something else. Such as laundry, cleaning, cooking dinner, reading scripture or talking to a good Christian friend. I pray more than I think I have in all my life. Usually I just pray for patience, understanding, calm, and nausea to pass. I'm trying hard not to push him away. However, sometimes I think the best thing is to head to my mom's for a week. That way he will have time to think all alone. I have no kids and he has two that live out of state.

It just hurts me that we are going in two different directions. I am trying to realize past mistakes that I've made like yelling, withholding affection, etc from him, repent and improve. He is still basically blind to the extent that his addictions rule his life and ours. He is still in denial and lying to himself and possibly me. I am going to wonder for a while if we will make it together or eventually part. I don't want to leave for good, because that means that the evil one gets his way we are separated and easier to deal with alone. However I don't want to lose sleep, vomit daily, lose my temper and resent him either.

Any and all prayers are greatly appreciated. Lord knows we all need them or we wouldn't be here. In many ways his addictions have brought me closer to God. There is a blessing in that if nothing else. I just pray that one day he will open the door to a new way of life for him and for us. We know we love each other, just can we live with each other right now? Truly, one way or another God's way will be done. Selfishly and lovingly, I hope I win.

**Warning- radical ideas as well as raw facts may lie ahead**

@ Tired and Waiting

Well, I'm not sure that I recognise your "handle" or your story, but here is one man's attempt to respond to your situation.

The first challenge I see is that you have? to work different shifts. I know some people do this deliberately to save on babysitting and to provide better care for their children, but, as I see it, there are enough inroads on our time today, that spouses need to spend as much time together as the can so as to continually bond together, emotionally and physically. So, that could be a step that someday might help improve things.

The second thing is I'm sorry to hear that he may have cheated on you, but it is encouraging to see that he confessed to it and you were able to forgive him. Likewise, the fact that he wept in shame as he admitted to you his "problem", shows that he has a tender, but wounded heart. The deepest wounds are self-inflicted: hating yourself for continuing to do something that, esp. right after you 'get done' you feel so horrible about and vow to yourself never to repeat, but it goes on and on.

Two things are certain: (1) pornorgraphy is an EXTREMELY addictive euphoric drug that is nowadays! free to obtain, easy to administer, and compulsively hidden due to shame. And that's the thing a guy hates about it: he's not in control, he's an addict to a form of pleasure, that sometimes seems so good and fascinating, and then appears ugly and wrong. We get very confused over this. We look to the churches and preachers for answers, but most of them don't talk about it... because they themselves are bound with the same habit.. look it up.This could be at the root of your husbands rejection of Christianity; he doesn't see an answer there for his situation.

The second thing that is certain: (2) When your husband tells you that "its not about you", or him being dissatisfied with you, he is being honest with you. (Case in point: Christy Brinkley.) Masturbation and, sometimes pornography, were his companion long before he was blessed to find a wife. So, these habits are not a negative reaction to his wife. Its just that hetero guys develop a fascination with women and sex that overwhelms them. The pleasure, excitement and curiosity about these things is endless. A guy has 40 times the testosterone (source of sexual arousal) of a female. He is deluged with it 2 times, once as a fetus!, then when he hits puberty. The male mind and body are transformed by this from birth on. We are far more visually oriented than women. If you think about it, this explains a lot. His sexual interests sometimes go beyond what he wishes to share with someone else. Its personal. I know this sounds like I'm excusing bad behavior, but I'm just trying to lay out the groundwork for why things are the way they are.


Guys think about sex every day, usually several times and wouldn't mind having sex if it was convenient about 8 times a week (one figure that i've read), lets say when they're in their twenties. That usually doesn't happen, so they make up the difference, with masturbation. (In other words, If a guy has sex that often he normally won't be very interested in porn or masturbation.) Part of this sex drive is due to men's bodies which are constantly producing new sperm and the body puts pressure on us, while we're young especially, to ejaculate, sorry, TMI. If we don't do so, we have night dreams, sometimes they seem like nightmares. (Apparently, this is God's way to cause regular ejaculations, if we are unwilling or unable to cooperate with the system, so as to provide a fresh, healthy sperm count) These experiences can be very disturbing in early adolescence.


As you may know, the Bible never condemns masturbation. The closest it comes to talking about it is a mention in Leviticus and Deuteronomy to what is likely nocturnal emission, telling the man to wash all his body and clothes so he could go to temple, and not be ceremonially unclean.

Most church people condemn it though, for two reasons: their own feelings of false guilt and shame AND because it is ordinarily conducted by means of erotic thoughts or imagery, at least that is the male modus operandi. So, the church, and society at large, have taken to pronouncing a normal human behavior as being immoral, whereas there is no law of God against it. ("Sin is the transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4)

Next, they condemn men for having a visual interest in attractive women or desiring and thinking about having sex. This too is absurd. God made men to want to have sex, and to enjoy and sexually desire women that they find attractive: Case in point: Song of Solomon. God said when He created sex/male/female: "It is very good". SEX is VERY GOOD. Most people would not argue that point. So, thinking about it isn't wrong, as long as you are not thinking about committing a sexual crime. Many wives would like to think that she is able to absorb all of a man's sexual interests and fantasies, but this is rarely the case, nor should it be. She has his devotion in marriage, but not over his mind. Each person is entitled to their own thoughts and imaginations.

The reason ladies feel threatened by this, is because their primary drive is relational, so for them to get to the point where they are interested in thoughts about sex with another person, they are thinking in terms of desiring that relationship. Guys have no interest in the relationship, just to absorb the pleasure of beauty and sexual relations.. yes, we're crude from women's viewpoint. Some guys don't regulate this and end up, given the opportunity, making the mistake of adultery. THis mistake doesn't make the entire behavior pattern wrong.

God made the fruit of the garden "pleasant to the eye". Its not a sin to enjoy what is pleasant to the eye unless it causes you to disobey God in some other way: eating a forbidden fruit, coveting another man's wife. Coveting another man's wife is NOT what is happening with pornography or erotica. It is a stimulus to sexual arousal in general, or to a fantasy only, with no intent to commit adultery, just to have a good orgasm, that's all.


IN MY OPINION:
The PROBLEM is that a guy allows pornography to take over his fantasy life, to give him the ability to orgasm quickly, due to its graphic content and variety. This acclimates his mind to the wrong thing. (IN other words, guys with a porn addiction, don't really have a porn problem, they have a masturbation habit that has been co-opted by pornography.) Once he realizes that his masturbation habit is normal human behavior, (95% of men, 60-75% of women married, unmarried, young or old, at varying frequencies masturbate; plenty of surveys document this) and that this NORMAL behavior,which CAN be used to relieve sexual pressure, need not be driven by pornography, he can start to be free. Its the shame and secrecy and false guilt that are a part of causing the "addiction".

(Your situation is unique in that you are taking steps to help him, he wants help but not sure what kind and it seems like you wouldn't be able to bring in a third party, so here are my suggestions:)

If your husband can accept that masturbation is not sinful, but normal, and do it as he feels is needed without pornography, then he will have taken control over his masturbation pattern, as to how and when. Once he feels like he's in control and he's not ashamed, then the bulk of the "forbidden fruit" aspect of this addiction is broken. This causes the adrenaline kick to be diminished, the forbidden thing is no longer that fascinating. It takes less stimulation for him to reach the threshhold. More sex is always good too. ( A lot of readers here absolutely reject what I just wrote, but its my story of recovery)

This may sound inappropriate of me, but it is important for him to be looking at you , at your face, when he climaxes, for that will re-inforce his desire to have more marital sex. (Biological fact) Occasionally, he may have a sexual fantasy or curiosity cross his mind that he might pursue. Once the two of you can open up more about these things, perhaps you can share more of these personal fantasies with each other, without feeling that you've done something wrong or that you aren't being fulfilled with your current relationship. We're just in this big bowlful of sexuality called the humanity and the world, and girls as well as guys take an interest in other things in the bowl besides their immediate friend/lover. If you can share these most intimate things with your friend, you can actually become closer friends than you were before.

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Miscellaneous thoughts that I was going to delete, but may benefit someone:

I think you can understand why he didn't talk about pornography and masturbation before you got married. He was too embarassed. Most guys feel a lot of shame and guilt over masturbation. Part of this is caused by our Western society which taught that mastubation was physically and pscyhologically harmful and huge efforts were made to overcome this "deadly habit", not to mention to shame the offenders. And, even though this mindset hasn't been publically promoted for 50 years or so, society as a whole, other guys, parents, ministers have continued to promote a shame and stigma on anyone doing this. The irony is of course, that over 90% of men masturbate, even when surveyed in the late 40's when the shaming of it was still common. The medical reason for circumcising infant boys was primarily done to inhibit the masturbation, but it was promoted as for good hygiene, as a cover.

All of that is to say this: Guys and girls discover masturbation before they marry. Girls usually start masturbating earlier than boys, however the percentage of girls who do so, and the frequency they have is never as high as that among boys. By the time boys are 15, close to 100% of boys have produced their own orgasm. Once they begin, they usually never quit entirely throughout their lifetimes. Its considered normal behavior by those who study sexual health and behavior. By the way, the failure rate of those who try to stop is nearly 100%. (Most of this information is available at websites such as healthystrokes.com ) The average young man will have normally masturbated to orgasm well over a thousand times before he has sex with a partner.

Some where along the way, pornography enters the situation. It has one primary purpose: to arouse sexual desire and imagination for either masturbation or intercourse. If you consider for a moment the nearly non-existence of visual erotica marketed to women, and the overwhelming flood of the same that is geared to men, you'll get some idea of the extreme difference between men and women in their relative interests in the visual elements of sexuality. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that there is a fundamental difference here of how the sexual response operates in men and women that is the "elephant in the room". Yes, pornography exploits some women, but it exploits men far more, by making merchandise of their sexual chemistry.

Of course, there is such a thing as excessive or indecent behavior, and there is such a thing as normal curiosity and upon discovering the intense pleasure resulting therefrom, developing a habit to repeat the rewarded behavior. At the same time, our mind and body tells us that this is "wrong". What is wrong about it is that it, sexual desire and arousal, is not an end in itself but is a force that is intended to drive the young man, to seek a wife. This in turn will encourgage him to seek gainful employment, develop his talents, improve his physique etc, so as to attract the mate he would prefer.

There's a theory that in male/female relations, guys focus more on the sex than the relationship, and girls focus more on the relationship than the sex. Each one is "motivated" to develop the element which is not their "drive" so as to get what they are more interested in. Guys do care about their wives. Ladies do want to have sex with their husbands. But this diametrical confluence is what helps join the two into one, and develop that which is good in each, a healthier relationship and a satisfying sex life.

Am I alone here? I feel like I am-sort of.... I remember being exposed to porn at a young age, way too young and not of my own seeking. Some sick joke that a person played on me many years ago to hurt me. As a result I never had a lot of interest in porn. Just a life altering experience involving cruel people-no judgment, just my experience.

That said, to this day I don't even find any interest in seeking random naked men in any form outside of a serious relationship. I sometimes wonder while being exposed to such things if there is something wrong with me. I don't know why I feel that way. I've just always found that being in a relationship with someone I truly care for and love is far more satisfying than any so called porn. I think that's part of my confusion in dealing with this addiction. I am not without fault at all, please understand this. Sometimes I feel so weird in that I really have always disliked "chick flicks" and found romance novels everything but romantic. In both cases I just interpreted them as a trumped up lies to be sold for profit on sorrows. Don't ask me how I came to feel this way as a child and to this current day. Perhaps I'm just jaded.


@ Rocky, as I've understood through education that negativity involving female or male masturbation, especially during the Victorian era, was defined as fits of mania. As such these fits were used to prove that in some way people were religiously flawed by public perception of the time. Another "winner" of the Victorian era was buying a big diamond ring as a sort of dowry, proof of financial responsibility and the serious intent to marry and support a woman and all the resulting children that usually followed. To me in the current day a diamond is just what it is, a shiny rock. I'll take what's in a person's heart before I take such silly constraints while well intentioned. Again I am weird or so I'm told by everyone including my family. Perhaps they really mean idealistic, I really don't know.


BTW, Rocky, thanks for your insight as a whole. Along with Sher and others you all have really helped reassure me that I don't need to give into the evil. Rocky, you have led me to 1 Sam 20:25-27 and it reassured me that even though it doesn't look like he will go to church this morning, church has already happened in one form or another. I might not have physical sleep, but things like this do ease the mind in my circumstance.

I think I have unnecessarily rambled on enough. Sorry if I have frustrated anyone. Sleep deprivation will do that to you. Thanks for your continued sharing, prayers and many blessings that you give and take as we all do, freely.

Glory be to God

@ Praying for Reprieve

Being exposed to pornography or being sexually abused at a young age often has a negative effect in a person's life. It sounds like for you it was almost an innoculation for a virus... you were administered a little bit, though wrongly, and it created an Anti-smut reaction in you. Sometimes the opposite occurs. My guess is that because you were pre-adolescent if shocked your mind so much, it created a strong aversion to such things.

Overall, I think your feelings and opinions on what your fiancé has been doing are correct. His Christianity is suspect to me: especially when it comes to strip clubs and locking and hiding all such things. He is guilty by default. Sorry to hear you were molested at some time and that you had a marriage that went bad. These are all factors in your dilemna.

I guess the scripture you got involving Saul and David may have come from a cross reference to another passage. There were numerous ways though, a person could become unclean, but that is one of them. It was a ceremonial uncleanness on par with a woman's period. There was no sin involved, as there was no sacrifice required.

I want to study the dowry and bridal price again sometime. Since its not part of our culture, these things are obscure to us. The norm was the suitor or his father would pay a bridal price for a virgin bride. This was part of why they had all the regulations regarding the girls virginity as well as why adultery was a death penalty crime. A man usually supported his family on his own and it would be a theft of his rights and property for someone to have relations with his wife or for her to be pregnant by someone else... if I understand it correctly. ( A dowry, I believe, was money, valuables or other property that always remained the wife's property, it didn't become communal property, just in case he divorced her, as divorce was rather easy back then, she would have some means of support if needed.)

So, no you're not alone here, if by that you mean you have an aversion to pornography and value relationships. However, most readers here would probably be opposed to you having a sexual relationship with your boyfriend, or living together, before you get married. I don't know that you've come right out and said this, but it seems to be your situation. This can be a problem. I don't want to say too much, because if you aren't "fornicating" then I'm off base. But, if you are, then your boyfriend is judging you in his mind as being no better than he is.

Most people would agree with him, though, that there are degrees of erotica. There are things that are not erotic, except in the minds of those who perceive it that way: little children on the playground, people at the beach, an R rated movie, a girl with a short skirt are examples. There is 'erotica' of classical art and sculpture down through the centuries, as well as literature, Song of Solomon. But, it spirals down into more and more graphic, vulgar and taboo depictions of sexual behavior and misbehavior. So, there is a wide range and we're all exposed to some of it during our lives. How we deal with it is where the problems begin.

The good news is, at least you are dealing with this before marriage. If you have read the other posts here, you realize that there is a divergence of opinion here and in the church, as to whether divorce is valid in the eyes of God, and therefore, the right to remarry. If you are seeking God's blessing on your life, these are issues that I think you have to deal with, determine in good conscience what you believe. If you have doubts about a given course, then don't move forward until you have clarity on it.

God bless you today. I'm in the mid-Atlantic states so we're snowed in today for the 2nd weekend in a row.

Awesome news Sher! Glad to know at least one couple is back on track. Us- far from it but still hanging in there. I think I could get there easier if he were more loving on me back. Best wishes for continuing growth in Christ.

Rocky,
"...a kind and humble approach ... " is what I'm aiming at, yes you're right about much, and he is a good husband, a nice man and a Christian, and I am 'very fortunate by comparison to most ladies here'.
He doesn't even understand himself. Though I don't think it would occur to him to refer to it as a fetish, 'it' came suddenly into his life while he was still in his teens and he doesn't even know how or from where. 'It' is about fighting with warrior-women.
Hard to explain, and I know guys' hurt is different, but most of my hurt and shock came from the secrecy. He kept it from me ALL the years of our marriage! He never did tell me, I found a website in the 'history' ... But I know I should, I can, see his side - his embarrassment and the longer one puts off telling something the harder it is.
He takes his marriage vows seriously - like you do. Interested to hear a bit of your story "She's still my one and only and always will be ..... But, we're not romantically involved. Don't know if we'll ever get back together, though she is interested.. I don't know how to go back again.. ..... " is moving, and I shall be praying you will both know what to do, how to come together again - maybe one step at a time?

Penis

I've read these comments, and they made me cry.

You know, I have every right to want a faithful husband and boyfriend. To want someone who won't cheat on me physically or with his mind.

I don't understand why I deserve less than the loyalty I'm giving him.

I want the world to be pure and not dirty anymore. That's all I want.

Matthew 5:28

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

********************************************************Warning, this may be disturbing to some, just to warn you.****



@ Rocky

You are right about the fornicating and living together. That's all on me because after I was raped as a child for many years weekly, sometimes daily, before I turned 11 I allowed myself to believe that I was worthless. Worthless because I had no virginity to keep because it had already been stolen. It didn't help that my cries for help were ignored while the abuse was allowed to continue. As a result I cheated myself and everyone else that I would have long term dating relationships with. When the subject of sex came up I would think, "Why not, its not like I have anything special left." I wish that someone had taken me to get church counseling, or any counseling for that matter to help me as a child re-direct my misguided thinking. My parents are divorced and the churches that they each went to separately didn't have anything to offer as far as good guidance as my parents and I agreed years later.

Thus I allowed that situation to help me make more wrong decisions. I say help because I used it as a crutch-an excuse. I just know now that I've cheated myself and I want to change. There are other complicating circumstances that I don't care to go into here--big ones. I've tried to tell my fiance that I've realized how I've cheated our relationship and want to change things in the hopes of trying to fix what seems broken beyond repair. He keeps pushing for marriage and I keep saying no. No because I don't think I'm the person I need to be. No because I wonder after how our relationship started off wrong how can it ever get on the right course. No because I doubt him, he's divorced from his first wife and mother of his kids, so what's to say he won't do it again? So many reasons to say no. Then there's the yes in that he tries like any normal person to do the right thing and be the right person in general. He tries most times to do the good and right thing. There is that potential there, I see it.

I just don't know sometimes what to do. I've got medical problems that are breathing down my back and he's the only one willing to be in my corner. My mom can't help, my dad's deceased and I have no siblings. My best friends all work and live out of state. I just get so frustrated and confused. Not like I used to in the past, but because I see the wrong in my ways and want to change. I know staying is not change in the right direction. However I need someone to help. I feel so torn up inside.

So if anyone wants to talk further on this subject feel free to e-mail me at "lisasawry@yahoo.com" with any suggestions.

Rocky, by the way, I hope you are faring well. From the sounds of it you may have gotten more snow. I hope for your sake its not too nerve racking--the cabin fever.

@ Ann:

Thanks for your well wishes.

@Praying for Reprieve:

I think many people here would agree that there's a special punishment for those who abuse children. I realize it could be a relative and incest, etc. but, I can't imagine having mercy on someone who would harm a child... the damage is severe and the crime is reprehensible. But, God is able. "I am the God that healeth thee" says Jehovah! :-)

Your reactions and negative self-image growing up were understandable. But now you have to look at things as objectively as you can.

You aren't pleased with your boyfriend's use of pornography, even if its "artistic", and he knows that you don't like it. Perhaps, at the right time, you can ask him: "How do you think I should feel about this?" or "If I were doing the same things as you with photos and videos of Chippendales or Playgirl pinups, how would that make you feel? The key here is to try to keep the conversation non-emotional, almost clinical. See what he decides to do.

He could pretend to agree but just begin trying to hide everything, or he might disagree, and end the relationship. Or, there is the possiblity that he will agree and give up looking at erotica. Perhaps, if you took the position that it is immature, adolescent, and as such you are "above such things", then he will lose interest in trying to protect his playthings. Again, though you may have medical, and possibly financial struggles that are influencing you now to make a bad choice, you know better.

I may have sounded a little harsh about "living together". I realize that it is pretty accepted nowadays, even in churches. But, that doesn't excuse us from doing the right thing. So, as to what that is, you can just begin one step at a time, applying biblical truth to your situation. God will help you if you take a stand on good conscience.

As I see it, the two of you should separate for now, cease the sexual relationship. Perhaps he can help support you while you live with your mother for awhile, or perhaps with one of your far off friends who could use a room mate . If you were married and now divorced, does God recognise it as such? Likewise, your fiance, is his divorce recognised by God? The Bible seems to teach the permanence of marriage until death, so these questions need to be resolved. God can't bless your union, if it is adulterous in His eyes.

And certainly, if a person cheated on their spouse in order to be with you, then you could be the next one "left behind".

I'm sorry for the hurt you have experienced for so long, but I have heard in your writing the thoughts of an intelligent caring person, worthy of respect and to be prized by her mate, when the time arrives. Keep trusting God to "work all things together for good".

Rocky

Yes, re: the snow.. Enough already... I've lost my back porch awning, the snow crushed it. My car is buried in ice and snow again, because of the blizzar and the plows . My girls promise not to pray for snow again. Their school is closed until next Tuesday. I asked them why aren't they going to school Monday? "It's President's Day!?" Hard to believe.

@ Rocky

Wow, as I live in a warm climate I can't imagine that kind of snow. I'm looking at traveling towards some snow, however that doesn't usually happen in my case. What ever the typical weather is, I tend to get the opposite which was rough when I went to the Rockies hoping for lots of snow and it was dry and lacking. Oh well, such is life.

I used to think no big deal about "shacking up" and now I feel differently. I don't happen to believe that just because everyone else does something that I should. I've always been an outlier statistically speaking in that regard. I have "shacked up" before with the try before you buy mentality and realize what a mistake it is for me.

I do believe that the best thing for me is to take some time and leave him to think alone and in solitude. If he chooses to take to his vices with a fury, so be it. My staying with him is not financial, it was because he has wanted to marry me for over a year. I conceded to his will in my folly. He actually saw how badly I was hurting for over a year and thought that he could save me. I think he still does in respect by wanting to be there to help me with my medical problems, even though what he gives and what I would like to have are two different things. My friends are several states away and incapable of hosting me, so I will have to work something out nearer to home.

I would like to try again to talk to him. I've tried person to person conversations, hand written letters, e-mails to no avail in attempting to communicate with him. He only gets part of the message that he can relate to or easily answer. He tells me I'm having false, or exaggerated feelings. I know there are times that I'm quick-tempered. However in general I try to remove myself from the situation so that I can be as level headed as possible. I think that trying to work through problems with reason and patience, while difficult, is the best approach.

I don't know what else to do. I'm so confused inside and out. Due to my medical issues and the loss of a child compounding issues I feel out of my mind. I know that most days its prayers from friends and God that get me through most days. I think that God is all that keeps me going right now. For that I am thankful.

In the coming weeks I have many things going on. I need to find some kind of help to deal with other issues that I have such as depression and grief. Psychology (non faith based) has not really helped in the past. Just a lot of "Yes, I can't begin to imagine how you feel." Laced with some other things that never seem to be a solution, they just leave me more frustrated and confused. So if anyone here can think of anything that might help that is Christian based I'm open. On-line is easier for me than most other things as transportation can be an issue.

Thanks to everyone for your support and understanding. I know that through God all things are possible. I feel like walking testament to that in my own confused, at times misguided, way.

Glory be to God

@ Sher
I am praising God right now for the miracle he worked in your heart regarding your husband and how you may have contributed to the problem. It is so easy for wives to pull away and not realize the further damage they do through their actions and reactions. When husbands are struggling with pornography there is a good reason to suspect that they struggle with self identity, self confidence and feel unworthy to be loved. Hug him, kiss him, love him up! My wife has been amazing for me - Jesus in the flesh giving grace and being open to talk to about the whole issue. She has really helped me! At the risk of sounding harsh let me also say, losing weight can be a key component in the solution. I used to weigh almost 300 lbs. and my wife was quite heavy as well. Together we have now lost over 155 lbs. together and we feel great. Our sex life is way better, our self confidence regarding body image has improved greatly and it really does help with the issues. My wife is incredible because she has worked alongside of me without the help of any peer group - a truly incredible women - and I am not saying that peer groups can't help. But, imagine for a moment, a group of women all ticked off that their husbands have failed and they are gathering to "help each other." Dang. While husbands may fail in this area and it is admittedly a dangerous area to fail in, there are other addictive attitudes and behaviours that wives fall into that are extremely damaging to a relationship but because of their subtlety they go largely ignored. At the end of the day, whenever any of us are struggling to forgive another person it is a clear sign that we need to reflect on our own sin against God and all that he has forgiven us (and whether or not we have been worthy to receive it.) Sher, my heart sings when I read and reread of the massive internal heart shift you have gone through --- please, keep it up, through the great times and the possible future failings. It makes a difference! May God bless you and keep you as you both work on your marriage and rebuild trust and respect for each other.

Thank you to everyone who has had the courage to post their stories here. It breaks my heart to read that others are going through the same things I am.
My husband had a year and a half affair that I found out about recently. At the same time I found out he's been doing the porn thing online. It came as quite the double blow.
I'm working very, very hard to forgive him for cheating. He says it was all talk....I doubt it. It's not easy to forgive. I'll be working at this for a long, long time.
Now the porn is another thing. When I saw what he was looking at it it hurt me to the core. I feel completely destroyed, crushed, anguish, etc. You name it.
When I confronted my husband (and I did so immediately because I refuse to stew about this stuff anymore), he said he's had this problem for longer than we've been together and that it's not about me. Well, when you married me you made it about me.

I found out about my husband's porn habit 2 weeks after our marriage. Right about the time marital bliss should have kicked in, I got a real kick of reality.
Next week will be our 1 year anniversary and we are still fighting and struggling with it. I can't tell you how many times I have felt like giving up and filing for a divorce. I'm tired of the lies, the deceit and continually confronting him with these other women. You see, my husband takes his porn habits to another level. He posts himself on single websites and actually contacts these women. Not only does he send and receive nude pictures, he also indulges in phone sex with them. While in the meantime its hard for him to have sex with me, because it requires too much emotion.
I don't know why I have stayed with him. In the past when men have cheated on me I don't even give them a chance, I walk. I have threatened to walk so many times and yet find myself coming back and telling him I forgive him. How many more times? When will enough be enough?

I got saved in September 2009 at a time when most of our problems escalated, hoping that God's devine intervention would present a solution. 5 months later and i feel like we keep coming back to the same place. We've finally decided to seek professional help, but now I don't even feel like I should continue. I pray to God to keep the faith, but it's not easy.

I have even found myself despising him at times. The other night when I found out about another woman he was keeping in touch with, he told me he hated me. That really hurt, because with all he has done and is doing, I can't bring myself to hate him. And yet he can so easily hate me for confronting him. That being the case, why continue to fight. After a year of marriage I feel like I have had to fight the battle of my life. As far marital bliss, I have yet to know what that is

Dear Tired and Ready to give up,
It may be easy to misunderstand what I wrote regarding Grace. It sounds like your husband has some major issues that need to be addressed in which tough love may be more effective. Sometimes giving too much grace without accountability is extending an allowance to indulge. So I have some questions: 1) Does he recognize that he has a problem? 2) Has he ever apologized for his actions/addiction? 3) Has he acted out an affair physically? 4) Do you have a pastor or counsellor you can talk with? That is, have you sought one out? 5) Are you a confident woman in yourself or do you have a history of allowing men to walk over you? 6) Often times a person knows what they need to do so...what do YOU think you need to do? 7) You mentioned that you became a Christian in 2009, is your husband a Christian? Please know that I will keep you in my prayers. As a husband who has had to deal with his issues and shame I can tell you that unless your husband feels true remorse, he will continue on this current path with expediency and disregard for anyone else. The truth is, he loves what he is doing and, in my opinion, has placed it over and above you as his wife. It makes me quite sad and my heart is breaking for you.

I never cease to be amazed at some couples I know where the wife doesn't mind her husband viewing sexual images. I have heard of times where the wife wanted the husband to go see a movie that was full of nudity (I thought "She asked her husband to go see that....and later talked about how good the movie was"). I ask myself "What is it that makes those women so secure and not afraid of losing their husbands or competing with those women on the screen?" (And these are women who are not swingers -- they are Christian). I know some that have been married for many years and had great families. Why are those woman different? If we say "Because they are not Christian", then I would say that I think that is a weak answer. After all, they are still women and secular women get jealous too. It must be something different, either in the woman or in the relationship, that makes the woman not be so afraid of the husband seeing nudity/sexuality. I even know of a 70+ year old relative (in my family) who is a good Christian who has a husband who every so often gets on the computer and looks at sexual images, and she (being a very aggressive personality) chooses not to make a big deal about it. Go figure.

Any thoughts why some Christian women react so differently than other Christian women?

@ MANONTHERUN

From my perspective this is how I feel....

When any kind of erotica starts to negatively affect a relationship to the point that a man is willing to let porn take over the sexual part of a marriage and act as a substitute then there is a problem. I have reshaped my mental perspective and am still in that process. I used to not care about what a man looked at as far as reading Playboy for instance. However in my marriage which ended in violence I realized that my husband was looking at everything the net had to offer to the point of having multiple hard drives, CPUs and all kinds of whacked out stuff. He decided not to hide his addiction to chasing the thrill and then tried to subject me to his will to act out what he saw on the web. He couldn't have what most people would consider a "normal" sexual side of our marriage anymore. He wanted to objectify me and degrade me to act out the real life thrill that he saw on the screen.

As a result I've learned how to better spot the addiction versus what I'd call a "mild interest" in regards to porn. If a man has the need to lie and hide his desire to look at erotica, then there is usually a much larger problem. (Imagine a duck, all serene up top and paddling like crazy underneath.) I believe that if a man's inner voice tells him to hide away in some sense of shame or guilt, then he really needs to stop and think. I've seen it too many times and it is heartbreaking.

I do believe that there are people out there both men and women that can look at Playboy/Playgirl like art to a certain extent. No real difference versus going to a museum. (I would imagine they are the same people that also read the whole magazine and not just the jokes section.) Then I think as Rocky has mentioned that some women will do as I have done to varying extents in the past and choose to ignore a man's desire to look at porn. As Rocky posted, 'Perhaps, if you took the position that it is immature, adolescent, and as such you are "above such things", then he will lose interest in trying to protect his playthings.' (Hope you don't mind me taking that out of context from your post on Feb. 10, 2010, Rocky.)

I am a reasonably confident woman. I've never had a difficult time making friends. I've had harder times being single before and after my marriage. I am not Miss America by any means--as in a physical ideal. I am not unattractive either. I am well liked by my peers. So I can understand a lot and I have a lot to offer to someone. However I don't like being cheated of an integral part of my marriage due to chosen internet content. I am me, and I know I'm worth more than the internet. Last time I checked, there aren't computers on the market that have compassion, love and the ability to hold you and understand like a person.

So I guess you have the women that will for whatever their reasons turn the other cheek. Then there are people like me that have been cheated the ability to sustain a deep, love-filled, God-loving, meaningful marriage due to erotica and his personal wants and desires being more important than God and a great marriage. I feel very cheated, but it wasn't for lack of trying to work things out. No minister, counselor nor my love and desire to help my husband could change anything. He was determined to turn his back on God, me and family to feed his desires. I guess its on a case by case situation that you would find your answer. I hope you find your answer.

Glory be to God

Praying For Reprieve,

Does your own walk with God mean you will wait for your ex-husband to return to you and God?

Victory in Jesus

@ Oliver,

As I have read your messages here, if I understand you correctly you are asking if I will not remarry until he and I are reunited in heaven. Of that I am not completely certain yet, whether or not I'll marry someone else on this earth. I know that when I was through the legal divorce that I never wanted to remarry again. I never wanted a divorce. However, my desire not to be physically beaten and run over with a car led me to leave my husband. It was the end of my life if I stayed with my husband. I don't think that God intended for me to stand like a deer in the headlights and let that happen.

I believe that God gave us free will enough so that if we choose to go away from him that we'll have enough rope to hang ourselves. However, at the same time I believe that God is kind and merciful to each of his children. I think the only way to suffer is to forever turn your back on God. I don't believe that if I should marry another man on earth that I am beyond salvation. I know that should I remarry that it will be after a lot of careful thought and prayer. Marriage counseling through the church is a must for me. I want to know that if there is another marriage its not just my selfish desires. I know that with good guidance through ministers and God that my doubts and concerns will be nonexistent. I will know that God has blessed any potential marital union.

Did this answer your question, Oliver? I'll look for your thoughts. Thanks for asking. Reflection and understanding are great things.

Glory be to God

Praying For Reprieve,

I will do what preachers and pastors for the most part have failed to do and still fail to do: Warn people against adulterous remarriage after divorce. Luke 16:18 and 1 Cor 6:9-10.

Porn addiction is a terrible spiritual sickness, and a heavy burden to be carried in a marriage. But it isn't the only force working to destroy marriage as an institution: From the beginning marriage has had to war against feminism (woman equal to man in the marriage and in church), narcissism (selfishness of both partners), secularism (if anything goes 'wrong' in the relationship, just divorce and marry someone else). It's bad enough that these bad attitudes are common in our society; it's much worse that they have become accepted in the church.

Over the last few decades, the moralistic 'preachers' have taken on the self-appointed task to publicly point the moralistic finger of condemnation at secular 'gay marriage' (which I agree is not godly) to decry it as the 'threat to marriage', but it isn't. The real threat to Christian marriage (and part of the undoing of the church of Jesus) is this pervasive laxity regarding the strict commandments of God regarding marriage, divorce, and remarriage among so-called believers in Jesus. If those preachers had instead pointed the finger of guilt inward to the church rather than outward to the secular community for all those decades, maybe the church wouldn't be in the mess it's in now, and that includes porn use among believers.

Praying For Reprieve, your legal divorce is just a separation in God's eyes. Paul told us that in such cases either go back to your spouse (if that is feasible someday) or stay 'single' (1 Cor. 7:10-11). You say that God is loving, and so he is, but he is also holy, and without holiness no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14).

For the believer, the goal of life is not to a) grow up, b) get married, and c) go to heaven. It's simply to go to heaven, and the way there is found by few (Matt. 7:14).

Victory in Jesus

Why so much religious neglect on the account of millions? Why waste so much resource to a natural desire that has been scientifically proven GOOD for your mind as well as your physical health. Consider this instead..

"If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

Just the other day a 17 year old girl was buried up to her shoulders, with only her head showing, while hundreds of men stoned her to death in the name of religion. Her sin, conversing with a boy, religious illiterates use inequality and tragedy to weasel their ways into the fragile minds of humans that should be handled by a counselor or psychologists. But ignorantly in the name of God, you march on to convert the mass of children that have been abused from the very system that defined the role of child parenting to their uneducated parents. just because someone told them that this writing is from God. One billion people don’t have access to clean drinking water, most families in war torn Africa live on less that a dollar a week for groceries and you are handing out paper booklets. You are just another wave in the sea of irrelevance.

How many more innocent girls will be stoned to death due to the literal translations of "God's word", before someone (Christians) stand up and admit; it is NOT God's word, but a reflection of an archaic, patriarchal, ignorant, brutal society that without any civilization or education wrote tales based on PRIOR writings (Buddha, Horus/Ra, Krishna, etc).

STOP being IGNORANT to the blatant brutality and misogyny that literally envelops the entire book of "God's word".

Why so much religious neglect on the account of millions? Why waste so much resource to a natural desire that has been scientifically proven GOOD for your mind as well as your physical health. Consider this instead..

"If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

Just the other day a 17 year old girl was buried up to her shoulders, with only her head showing, while hundreds of men stoned her to death in the name of religion. Her sin, conversing with a boy, religious illiterates use inequality and tragedy to weasel their ways into the fragile minds of humans that should be handled by a counselor or psychologists. But ignorantly in the name of God, you march on to convert the mass of children that have been abused from the very system that defined the role of child parenting to their uneducated parents. just because someone told them that this writing is from God. One billion people don’t have access to clean drinking water, most families in war torn Africa live on less that a dollar a week for groceries and you are handing out paper booklets. You are just another wave in the sea of irrelevance.

How many more innocent girls will be stoned to death due to the literal translations of "God's word", before someone (Christians) stand up and admit; it is NOT God's word, but a reflection of an archaic, patriarchal, ignorant, brutal society that without any civilization or education wrote tales based on PRIOR writings (Buddha, Horus/Ra, Krishna, etc).

STOP being IGNORANT to the blatant brutality and misogyny that literally envelops the entire book of "God's word".

Tommy have you ever fully read the NT ? I am not trying to be rude, I'm just curious.

Yes, do you know who wrote the new testament?

I am so totally blown away at all the comments posted here in regards to pornography addictions, divorce and separation.

I have a great question? Why is pornography so addictive anyway. It is sick, unnatural and completely immoral in every way. My husband is an addict and has been one for around twenty years. How do you not take that personally? Also, how do you build trust, respect and continue to love someone who has done nothing to earn that trust through their addiciton? Pornography gives individuals a very warped sense of what love truly is and how to appropriately express love. As we now come to an end of our marriage after ten years I am going to need some extensive healingand counselling and I fear for my two young daughters who will continue to have a father/daughter relationship with a dad who views women in such a disgusting, object like way. I pray he will be healed of this disease and never be tempted to use them in any sexually abusive way as they are growing up. I must protect them from this illness that has been a part of our family for so long. Does anyone have any advice on how I might do this?

Tommy- I am assuming that you know who the authors are and I do ask that you would tell me who they were so that i may be enlightened. For if the bible was not authored by God then it is not really worth looking into. Also I am curious what you think about the book of Romans in regards to the Law.

Sandy,

I have some answers to the questions you've asked. But it would do you no good to read them because you are too busy being in control of the situation. From your recent post, it's clear that you think you know all the answers that are important to your immediate plans for divorce.

You asked why porn is so addictive - a very good question - yet I doubt you really want to know why. You understand porn addiction only from its negative consequences, but not at all from its spiritual causes.

You hate porn; I hate divorce. Modern people are just as addicted to divorce as they are to porn. Both are the easy ways out of difficult situations we find ourselves in. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and you can't find it within yourself to love your own husband. Why? I think I have an answer to that question too.

Maybe you'd tell me that it would be too hard for you to continue to love your husband. And then I would reply that maybe the only really important things in life are the hard things we have to deal with. Christianity isn't one of the easy religions, nor did God intended it to be.

Since you refuse to continue to love your husband, then there is something wrong with your ability to keep your own marital vows. Was your original intent for marriage to be under God 'till death do you part', or was it intended as a marriage of convenience all along? Was it intended as a godly marriage or a frivolous romantic excursion into worldly vanity, the same kind as envisioned by the secular mind?

Victory in Jesus

This is not the place to discuss inspiration of scripture so i will comment no further...

@ Oliver you wrote:
I will do what preachers and pastors for the most part have failed to do and still fail to do: Warn people against adulterous remarriage after divorce. Luke 16:18 and 1 Cor 6:9-10.

Today I met with my Pastor over the break up of my marriage. My husband's porn use and our rollercoaster relationship due to the aftermath of that looks like it's ending. He has moved out of the house and wants a divorce. So I asked for advice on what to do next with my life, said I was lost and confused and not really knowing where to turn or what to do. He touched on the very topic your push. I was previously married to an aduterous man prior to this man. That ended in divorce. Now it looks like I'm into divorce number two soon.

As far as my branch of faith is concerned ( Lutheran ) - I have done nothing wrong biblically. My husband's use and turning to porn/ other women for sexual lust and pleasure is in a way abandonment of the marriage as far as sex is concerned. He abandoned me with porn / cyber sex junk, and now he's abandoning me by walking out of the union. So, I am free to know I am spiritually in the clear as far as divorce is concerned and would be remarried in the church just fine if I choose that.

My first husband was unfaithful many times too. So I left that relationship free and clear. Porn use is definately a form of adultery. He was the one to turn away from me. I am not taking it apart..he is. He alone ruined this union with whores.
I am free to live my life fully and not worry about what Oliver
states. I am not tainted goods. Nor will my future husband be simply by marrying me. Personally though I doubt I'll be trusting another man anytime soon. They have torn this heart up and I'd rather stay single forever. I dont need a man to make me happy anymore. I need me, my children, and God,
I pray for all of you hurting like I have too.

KBinAZ, did you even bother to read the scriptures I referenced regarding divorce and remarriage?

Everyone, please search the scriptures diligently on this matter and don't just take someone’s word for it. Whether you think I am right or wrong, do so because you have searched the scriptures yourself and rightly divided the Word of God in all good conscience.

Nobody should ever worry about what Oliver says. But we must all worry about what Jesus says:

Whosoever putteth away his wife and marrieth another, committeth adultery; and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery (Luke 16:18).

No adulterer will enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

KBinAZ, on judgment day you will not be judged by your Lutheran pastor, but by a holy God who demands obedience from us. For without holiness no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14).

And unto the married, I command, yet not I, but the Lord, let not the wife depart from her husband, but if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband; and let not the husband put away his wife (1 Cor. 7:9-10).

For the woman which has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if her husband be dead she is loosed from the law of her husband (Rom. 7:2).

Women here seem to be very keen to complain of their husbands’s adulteries by their use of porn, but not to care at all about their own adulteries by remarriage before all previous spouses are dead.

The principle at the heart of this debate is what we could call "The Principle of One Flesh." Jesus stated that when a man and a woman marry each other in their first marriage, they become in God's eyes "one flesh" - a mystical union, the nature of which only God understands fully. And that union is only dissolvable by the death of one or both of the spouses. Hence, marriage to someone else after divorce, but prior to the death of the divorced spouse, is adultery.

This is not a popular message - and I don't enjoy giving it - but the stakes couldn’t be higher. Part of the reason the church is so messed up is because its gets its notions of right living from the ungodly sentimental beliefs of the unsaved world the church lives within. If you live your lives according to their worldly beliefs, why would you expect not to suffer their fate?

Victory in obeying Jesus

And that union is only dissolvable by the death of one or both of the spouses. Hence, marriage to someone else after divorce, but prior to the death of the divorced spouse, is adultery.

OK Oliver- my ex is dead. He died 14yrs after our divorce but not before I was remarried. He was a complete pain in my ass yet I hung in there for over 5 yrs till he threatened my well being physically, ruined us financially by getting in trouble with the law, lost his job in the process, and became a totally disfunctional human into drugs and alcohol. Did porn, strip clubs, affairs, etc. I got frequent infections from him sleeping with other people. He'd wake up in the night and urinate on the furniture or pee in the bed because he was so stoned out of his mind he didn't know where he was. He was not a good man.

All I did was love him and try to get myself through school at the same time. I tried very hard to help him. Got him help for his drug addictions, etc. Still tried to make it work. He hid money and would take off for 16 hrs or more unansered for. That marriage fell apart and was taken down by a sinner to the core and it wasn't me. I'm sure God was good with that deciscion of mine to leave. It was for the best to disolve a toxic marriage to a self destructive man who progressively got angrier at me for trying to help him. He even went so far as to try to jump into my mother's bed to talk her into having sex with him since I could no longer tollerate his overatures. My mother was terrified. He was drunk and really stupid. She managed to get away and I never knew of it till much later. Had I'd known I would have hurt the man ( kicked him in the balls hard) and gladly gone to jail for assalt. We all lived in the same house at that time. He was a mean and nasty man when drunk or on drugs. Sober - he was a funny nice guy but was always looking out for himself first.

According to your posting now my current husband and I are both adulterous and I am screwed no matter what I do. I'm tainted poor goods right. I defilled my second husband and self by leaving an aduterous, hardend hearted mind, who also drank, did cocain, and ended up beating me up one night and trying to choke me. Then later threatened me with a gun while I was driving us both to the bank to divide our assettes before that divorce was final. And showed his aduterous ways by scaring the crap out of my mother in the middle of the night as she lay sleeping. Woke her up for sex. I think God can see who's heart is with him and who's is not.

I dont think God won't forgvive me or my husband's should we feel sorry for our sins come judgement day. It's not like I wanted a divorce from a good man who loved me. He was a jerk and now my second one is turning into something on similar lines. Not into the drug end, hasn't hit me yet, but exhibits violent outburst that intimidate me, screams at me to get the f out of his face enough, and punches holes in the wall, smashes plates on floors- a bit scary to a person don't you think. He is a bit larger than me and has very manly hands. All because I cry over what has happened. I may yell back or even cuss him out too and be just as unlovable in my words but they are just words of pain dealing with the hurt he did by using porn/ cybersex junk. I tell him we have to talk to resolve this. Weather we scream or whisper - we have to talk it out. Even though I'm angry and put up limitations, have isollated myself a bit to protect my heart, I am not the one who stepped away from either of my marriages for adultery. I lusted fully for both men always. Stayed by them when times got bad even. Loved them fully and stayed sexually loyal to them from day one.

Preach what you want- Straight up scripture..but the other coin to that are the verses on what constitutes adutery. I only know what I live and my spiritual guidance says I'm good. I tend to believe him. The scripture is clear on God's forgiveness of our sins. I think I'm gonna be OK> If not- then I pay whatever the price is . I'm good with that.

I am now married to another man who says he done with us. Has walked out on the family and has yet to return except to come and clear out his clothes. Even though I have told him I do not want this, I love you, you are the love of my life, you are choosing to leave your children in the most formative years of thier lives (teen yrs), and be a part time father by living away from them. I'd think you can be mature enough to only move into the next room if that is what your truely wanting for a while till we figure out our life. You need to see the value in your wife and your marriage. Do you really want to give up after all this time together and just walk out and have to start all over again? He repied, " I am fed up with yo !" and took the rest of his clothing. Packed up a few personal items too out ouf our garage and storage sheds. I asked him do you want me to keep your last name? He didn't care one way or the other. I asked him what do you want me to tell the neighbors- He said tell them I'm a jerk. I'd say he meant what he said. I have invited him to dinner once, asked him home on 3 different occassions since leaving. I get shot down at every turn with silence, anger, and no. I don't believe he's lost any sleep over me or shed one tear in months. So were done. I have done all I can do.

Three days later my father calls him just to talk on what he has in mind. And he tells him he never said the word divorce. Family is telling me to just sit tight. ?? He spews one image to me and another to my family. I have no idea where the man's brain has gone to. He's lost it I think. My children and I are sort of numb from it all. Because no matter how ugly things got between us, I never dreamed he'd actually walk out. I had been putting forth a really good efffort to make him feel loved, etc.

Well if you tell someone your done, take your belongings, ditch your family for a week solid - I think the message sent is clear. So he thinks he can leave our home - go take a few weeks stay away at a relatives home, go to work, and play around with no limitations of freedom, while I am here stuck at home with the kids 24/ 7 doing his job too, then he can go and sew his wild oats and think he can turn around and come back antyime and be a married man once he's gotten all that out of his system? NO- I don't work that way. If he can't come home as asked more than once nicely, I'm done crying over him, and moving on. I saw a lawyer and discussed my options for dissolution of the marriage.

I went in to speak with our Pastor about what to do, threw out the offer to return home again but emphasized it needs to be done now. Just get his butt home and be here no matter how difficult our difference are. At least I didn't walk out. NO matter if that means the couch, another room, or in the garage for all I care, or with me. I am not waiting on him much longer. I have to protect myself emotionally & otherwise. So if he can't find it within to say - I love you back, can't manage to say " Yes, I am in this forever and you are love of my life too. Never has done that in weeks of heart to heart discussions. I'd say we're done. He won't answer or take my calls, just only texting. Making it hard to work together as we are self employed. Pretty telling and abandoning I'd say. Your right O- the only man I will worry about is the big man upstairs. I think my heart is good and Ill be just fine. I'd like my husband home have expressed that numberous times. He rejects it all. If I don't see him at my doorstep in the next day or so with a new attitude and one hell of an appology- I don't want to keep doing this. It's too hard. Yes, I have done my fair share in the conflict side of this all. We are equal to blame there. But I didn't start this turmoil. He did and now he can't deal with the emotional trauma that fallows. So I move on and life and find love again when I'm ready. Not now that's for sure.

KbinAZ,

You have some serious misconceptions about sin and forgiveness. If your husband were to tell you that he is sorry for the sins he does to you, but you should forgive him for them even though he is determined to continue to do them, I think you’d say, No way! Well, God is the same to us. He demands that we repent of our sins, which means not only to feel sorry for them but to stop doing them as well.

Now, let’s deal with the divorce you had from your first husband. God hates divorce, but he acknowledges that sometimes it’s necessary. I went over that last time, but I’ll give it again:

And unto the married, I command, yet not I, but the Lord, let not the wife depart from her husband, but if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband; and let not the husband put away his wife (1 Cor. 7:9-10).

So, legal divorce to God is merely separation (where the Principle of One Flesh still applies), in which the parties either reconcile or remain ‘unmarried’, that is, they don't remarry in that state (while the spouse in separation is still alive).

I think that you had good reason to separate from your first husband, but no scriptural grounds to remarry so long as he was live, yet you did. (As for what you mean by being ‘tainted’ by divorce, I don't know what that means in scriptural terms.)

Let’s add some more scripture:

For the woman which has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if her husband be dead she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her (first) husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her (first) husband be dead, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man (Rom. 7:2-3).

Okay, I owe you my honest opinion as it stands right now, according to my study in the Word to date: You entered your second marriage in adultery but that adultery ended when your first husband died. So, unless someone can point out to me some contrary scripture that I’m overlooking, I see no scriptural reason why you cannot stay with your second husband. (If divorce occurs, reconciliation could take the form of a second marriage to your husband, only this time as a godly marriage.)

But you have been rebellious against God, who has been very gracious to you. Repent of your sin of adultery and resolve not to be married (in God’s eyes) to more than one man at a time.

You’ve been rebellious in another way too. You place so much importance on finding happiness in life through marriage that marriage itself has become an idol that replaces what should be your primary search for joy by coming to full love of God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Once you place God more important than marriage, you will grow in toleration of your husband’s faults, because you will see them in the perspective of eternity. The pearl of great price is salvation, and nothing is anywhere near as important as that single goal in life. When we set up anything that competes against that goal, we create an idol, and we inevitably find that that idol disappoints, as all idols must in time.

Men often set up an idol of porn and its sensuality and pride of ownership, and they can be blind to the idolatrous nature of their addiction. But women can also be blind to their over-emphasis of marriage, making it an idol, and they find that marriage is less fulfilling than the hype it gets (1 Cor. 7:29).

I’m not a big fan of marriage for believers. The apostle Paul wasn’t either. God needs single people who can devote themselves to his kingdom come on earth in the here and now (1 Cor. 7:32-33). People marry too readily, long before they are mature in the Lord and before they have gotten to know their prospective spouses’s character inside and out. Make that engagement last for years, please. If there is any doubt, don’t go through with it!

When we fail to understand marriage as God wants us to, we set ourselves up for sin and disappointment. First, because we tend to make marriage an idol that takes our love from God, who is to be our first love. And second, people tend to covet the notion of a successful romantic marriage, the same way a lottery player covets winning the big prize. Believers must learn to stop following the naïve ways of the unbelievers around them.

Marriage is much harder than people want to think. People naively enter marriage with unrealistic romantic beliefs that they will find happiness and fulfillment in it, in spite of all the empirical evidence to the contrary. And worse, they hold an easy-get-out-of-marriage card, thanks to the state’s no-fault divorce laws. Friends tell you to divorce at the first sign of trouble, and spouses hedge investing completely in their own marriage for fear that it might end some day in divorce. That’s not a godly marriage at all.

The church doesn’t help godly marriage either: It promotes easy divorce and remarriage after divorce. The shame of it! Marriage is neither a necessity nor an entitlement of life. It is a privilege God grants to us under highly restrictive conditions.

KbinAZ, you’re full of bitterness and resentment. Deal with those with God’s power of hope and forgiveness first. Then commit yourself to obey the scriptures, otherwise, you’re headed for a rebellious future. How can you expect your husband to become a godly husband if you’re not willing to become a godly wife? If you want God to enter into the mess of your marriage to redeem it then you both have to change. For a scripture passage that declares the godly role of women, see 1 Peter 3.

Victory in Jesus

Oliver- I'm not full of bitterness at my second husband. Profound disappointment is more like it. I call it the great sadness. I am angry as hell at him for walking. As far as forgiveness is concerned. I am torn on that. I am really wondering where God has been in protecting me and my family from all of this. Is he there , is he listening, etc. So maybe when I can get that processed & wrap my brain around it fully maybe I can forgive my husband one day. I don't know. Maybe it will never happen. It would be easier if he were still here fighting for our marriage instead of out playing bachelor man. For now it's made me question much in my life. There was some level of forgiveness if I was here caring for him daily, working side by side, having marital relations, etc. He is the one who needs to look at his own issues and find a way to love me and not run when the going gets tough- even when I'm sad or angry. I stayed even though I was upset and didn't walk when I found his adulterous heart and ways. Put up with tons of hurt over the years. God is my father and I know he loves me. He knows what I have been through. I will just have to wait and see like everyone else on this planet what the outcome will be. Thanks for your insight but I still feel the same. We all have our own interpretations to some degree. God Bless & keep debating the topics. Porn ruins relationships.

CP, I will get to you but first I much address Oliver. I disagree with almost everything you are saying but I will just touch on one of your positions. "Christianity isn't one of the easy religions"? I would be interested in what other religions you have researched. Personally, I have researched an array of other religions and found Christianity to be the without doubt the "easiest religion", for no others is it just so simple to ask God into your heart and suddenly have been saved for all eternity. If you want to argue the contradiction the bible shows when relating this simple gesture of opening your soul, to the “Roman laws” by which / if one is broken you are not allowed into the kingdom of heaven, personally I feel there is not enough time to justify the need to write any further on that subject. I will not go into the commitment other religions ask of you either, but I will let you know that in Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, and Judaism just to name an extreme few. Ask an extreme amount more than just opening your heart and accepting by faith that your soul is saved. I personally find this apathetic credence appalling, aligning yourself with such exuberant egotistical audacity in and of itself contradicts the very name of Christianity.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”
-Stephen Roberts

Now CP, “Who wrote the New Testament?” It was primarily done by one writer with a few books written anonymously, which has the same writing style of that primary writer. This writer is Paul, although almost every book has co-writers/authors/ I wish I had time to address each book separately but for the sake of time I will address the issue in an ontological approach.

Christianity hinges on the fact that the New Testament is “divine word” (meaning; from God), while most Christians don’t realize who wrote the book nor do they analytically evaluate the person Paul himself. My point is short and it is this;

If “God” was speaking through Paul, why would Paul need co-writers?

Biblical co-writers – Luke, Silas, Timothy co wrote around seven or so books with Paul (that number could be off by a few but the point remains the same), among other unknown aliases writing such books as; 1st and 2nd Kinds, Job, Esther and 1st & 2nd Chronicles.

Now don’t begin to assume that this is the reason I do not take the Bible as god’s word, it also has to do with the facts that it has consistently been proven false in the fields of history, archeology, anthropology, ontology, architecture, paleoecology, paleontology, paleobotany, and many many more.

“The atheist does not say ‘there is no God’, but he says ‘I know not what you mean by God; I am without idea of God; the word ‘God’ is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation… The bible God I deny; the Christian God I disbelieve; but I am not rash enough to say there is no God as long as you tell me you are unprepared to define God to me.”
-Charles Bradlaugh

Let me just say that if you truly are a "Christian" then what Oliver is saying is 100% true. Because the bible is supposed to be a literal translation not figurative. I obviously am not a Christian, rather more a fan of logical systematic investigation of truths basing my search in REASON and not "FAITH".

KBinAZ,

You must forgive everyone, every time, no exceptions. If you don't, God will definitely not be on your side and you risk eternal separation. Jesus told us to forgive, not because the offender deserves it, but because we are all sinners ourselves in need of God's forgiveness (Matt. 6:14-15).

I encourage you and your children to read the Bible every day, for from it are the wellsprings of life. So, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Rom. 10:17).

There’s something for every believer in the following verse:

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).

You can’t expect your husband to change his addiction to porn unless, first, he is motivated to do so, and second, he has the knowledge of how to accomplish overcoming his addiction, and Gal. 5:16 is the key to that deliverance (for true believers in Jesus), just as it was in my own life of addiction to sex and porn that had lasted over 40 years but was miraculously broken in one day in mid-June 2008.

Peace through hope, patience, and forgiveness, and in believing in God's ability to perform miracles in due time.

Victory in Jesus

Why porn?

This is a good question. The reason is traced to idolatry. Porn represents many idols one of them manifests itself in the following dynamic. Porn provides men with the gratification of sexual urges and desires without requiring them to engage the difficulty of relationships...ghosts of the fall: When Adam sinned he cut himself off from the source of his confidence to boldly and bravely enter our world. This has perpetuated since, it was part of the curse that God placed upon Adam for his disobedience. Man was now forced to either deal with the challenges of life on his own strength or avoid them. What is easier? Charge the saber tooth tiger to make a meal out of him or find some clever way to avoid what might kill him or at least make him appear foolish? The idol...appearance, pleasure thru physical gratification,

Men since have been avoiders of that which threatens their strength, has some perceivable capacity to expose his weakness thereby causing him humiliation. This holds true in all areas of a man's life but especially in the category of intimate relationships and supremely in marriage. Jesus' only lawfully acceptable pathway to sexual intimacy requires couples to negotiate the tedious, intimidating, arduous jungle pathway of the marriage relationship and relying upon His strength to do so. To enjoy the sexual aspect of marriage men must risk exposing themselves to the requirements of intimacy long before taking his clothes off with her: love, humility, transparency, honesty, patience, willingness to suffer and endure while trusting Jesus to provide them with the courage and strength to persevere. God has designed the marriage relationship so that it requires nothing less.
Three primary illusions, lies, that are inseparable with porn. First, porn attempts to bypass that pathway I described and it is always attended by the lie that the requirements for intimacy can be bypassed; it can't and without consequences, there always are. Porn appeals to man's penchant to avoid that which threatens him; offers him an "alternative" that bears the illusion of affirming his sexuality and sense of masculinity. Third illusion is that of control: that a man gets to control the entire sexual interlude: the type of act and volume and frequency of it, appearances and numbers of the person(s) involved, and indulging fantasy This is why it is so seductive...the salacious images and graphic depictions of sex are more "carrots" rather than the central issue at hand. As in all addictions the object of the addiction serves the primary subject: avoiding a perceived threat and choosing the easy way; the way that does not require one to trust Jesus.

Despite this, Jesus still moves toward us. He wants to forgive and heal and restore our faith in Him. He wants to be the source of our strength that will empower men to stop avoiding and start moving bravely and boldly toward intimacy and relationships. To seek His affirmation of our sexuality as men and women.

Are we all forgetting that masturbation is a healthy sexual outlet?
Sure pornography may be a slippery slope... but why is no-one on here accepting it is natural?

Matt,

Have you considered the possibility that letting go of your grip on your penis might result in a direct encounter with Jesus in ways that you could never have realized had you kept relishing in the temporal pleasures of masturbation?

Matt,

What is informing your worldview that says masturbation is a healthy sexual outlet? Upon what information are you basing your perspective? Jesus or your own life and experiences? Is your information consistent with the overall, entire message of scripture?

If you're merely basing your worldview upon your own life and experiences then you are merely engaging in none other than setting yourself as the standard by which you determine what is true and therefore what is moral...if that is the case then you cannot lay anymore claim to masturbation being healthy than one who says masturbation is sinful. Your morality is rendered relative and moot. So who's morality are you basing your opinion on? Your own? The worlds? God's?

Matt, you really need to think about who's morality your adopting and proposing as truth.

Please let us know.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies... But I am not basing my opinion on any sort of morality. It is not a moral question whether or not I should or can masturbate, just like it is not a moral question whether I choose to eat broccoli or tuna! Or choose to go for a run or cycle!
If God did not want us to masturbate why would He make us so that our bodies caused health problems for those who do not masturbate? Scientific research has examined the effects of masturbation vs. no masturbation and has discovered that there are many health benefits to rubbing one out!
And yes I prefer to examine things in an intellectual way as well as considering spiritual options, so you can call me stupid for listening to science, but hey word of mouth stories just aren't cutting it for me anymore ;) let's have peace in this world instead of focusing on the irrelevant concerns.

@ David and Matt:

Info RE the health benefits of orgasms is old news. God's pretty smart about making things like sleep and sex to keep us healthy and the race continuing. Google it and you'll get about 70,000 replies: Here are a few:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401722,00.html

http://www.menshealth.com/men/health/sexual-health/health-and-sexual-benefits-of-masturbation/article/ebbfa18f0e4a9110VgnVCM20000012281eac

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/masturbation?opendocument

http://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/101/tips/masturbation-101.aspx

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The most recent famous study was regarding the prostate health of men who are frequent masturbators. THIS was indeed groundbreaking if true. For while all Christians could agree that God would make sex a healthy venture besides being fun, most would have a little problem considering that God might give better health to frequent wankers.

The main study was in Australia Read about here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm

I think the reason it was considered healthier than normal sex was simply a statistical anomaly: that those who did not, engaged in more risky sexual behavior and thus contracted diseases that the "healthy group" did not. They seem to ignore the most healthy ones: happily married couples having frequent sex in their twenties. So, it may be a bit misleading. But, it does substantiate the concept that frequent ejaculations are important for prostate health if you read the article. So, this does support Matt's contention that I tend to agree to: why would God deny the numerous health benefits of orgasm to his unmarried children? It would seem absurd to suggest that He would do this.

Combining these thoughts: Masturbation is a normal human sexual activity that begins in childhood , harms no one, produces a beneficial experience by all counts, and is not forbidden in the Bible. So, where's the beef?

Hey,
I know this may seem a tad naive, but what exactly is porn?
I am finding it hard to forgive something when I'm unsure of what exactly I'm forgiving.
Why would a man 'need' it? The physical release feels the same whether there is visual 'stimulation' or not.
Whenever I am with him, and a beautiful woman walks past, I can't help but think "He's seen women like her naked". I think it's satan?
After he first told me, I think the only thing that kept me with him is that 'every man goes through it'. We're a young couple...
I can't help that think after one of our dates where we kissed perhaps a bit too much, it might've been my fault. That he wanted to finish with someone else what we 'started' (kissing....). What do you think?
I have so many questions and noone to talk to. Despite these questions, emotionally I have done a great amount of healing. God loves me. God loves me more than is imaginable. His love is uncondional. He will never betray me. He is always here for me. And he is for any other wives feeling hurt on here! God loves you to bits.
Anyway, thanks if you have any answers. I feel lost in this whole issue.

Thought this might help couples:
*Some insight into why pornography is so addictive and so harmful*
Men are created with core desires: to feel 'manly' and to feel respected. This is why pornography is so effective - it strikes the core of these desires. But in a very, very wrong way. It is fake respect (on the porn star's part) - she is not performing just for him (although it feels like it). And it is fake masculinity. True masculinity is about courage and gentleness and love.
It hurts females because it practically destroys the three most NECESSARY feelings in a woman: to feel beautiful, to feel desired, and to be the only one her man desires. For a woman's boyfriend or husband to be attracted and addicted to others makes her feel not as beautiful as them, not as desired, and definitely not the one object of his desire. For healing between a couple the man MUST show her that she actually is beautiful and desired - ONLY HER, in his eyes. Females are a part of pornography often because it makes them feel these things. Again, in a ver, very wrong way.
We as God's children are daughters and sons of the highest king - do you treat each other in a manner you would the highest prince, or princess?

Lastly, as an interesting point, the pain involved with pornography (and for that matter, adultery) is similar to the pain God feels when we reject him. We are made in God's image - both male AND female. These desires of men and women - to rescue (manliness), to feel respected, to feel beautiful, to feel wanted, and to be the ONLY object of one's affections are more than emotions. They are desires from the core of our souls - desires that God has. God wants desperately to protect and rescue us. He wants us to respect him. He wants us to find him beautiful and glorious (haven't you seen a sunset?! That, I believe, is God's way of showing us his beauty. HE WANTS US TO ADMIRE IT). He wants us to desire him (love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength). And above all, he wants himself to be our TOP desire. He doesn't want us to desire any other god or idol.
In conclusion, pornography shows how genius the devil it. It strikes a man's soul and imitates exactly what he needs. And it hurts a woman in a way nothing else really can. There is always hope. Men - realize how fake it is and how it will never satisfy your desires. Women - understand why men are so vulnerable to this special trick of the devil. Know you are loved, beautiful and desired - in both God's eyes and, generally, your husband's - despite his addiction. Use this as an oppurtunity to understand God's pain for this world on a whole new level. But avobe all - it does need to stop.
May God be with you.

@Stella
That God sounds like a big baby!
If he is so powerful the why does He "need" us to respect him so much. I'm pretty sure my God doesn't care how much I respect Him, so long as I'm doing as best as I can for myself and others.
My God is responsible for His own feelings, and if I'm creating distress for Him then He needs to seek some professional help.
Plus if He did create everything then porn is some of His handiwork whether we agree with it or not - and by the way, woman are not immune from the excitement of pornography!

Those weren't my words. Perhaps 'need' was the wrong word, but he does want it. Read Hosea, Matt - it's all about how much God was hurting - yes, he hurts - over Isreal -his people- abandoning and rejecting him for other Gods. Even though he loved them to bits. Of course God wants us to respect him! He wants us to love him, and you can't really love something you don't respect.
Imagine you have a child, and that child murders someone. You created that child but you DID NOT create the feelings of anger or whatever. God created us, we create evil things. He allows us to do so because we have free will and our love for him would mean nothing without it. I understand that women do, but 99% of pornography watchers are men. And this is a thread for wives/girlfriends with husbands/boyfriends watching porn. I was looking for some answers, not an ill thought out attack....

We, as Christians, look to the Bible as our "final rule of faith and practice". In other words, we look to the writings of the scripture, in the Old and New Testament to inform us about:

1) What God is like
2) What God considers sin
3) What God considers acceptable (what is not sin)
4) How we should live knowing these things (1-3)

With a few exceptions, most Christians do not argue whether or not we are still obliged to keep the ceremonial/civil aspects of the law (i.e. priests' garments, washing and preparing meat a certain way, sacrificial requirements, prohibition of wearing clothing made of mixed fabrics, the prohibition of growing two types of food in the same garden, certain punishments, etc). Most Christians would agree that the the civil/ceremonial aspects of the law were specific to the nation of Israel before the coming of the New Covenant. Likewise, most Christians would say that the MORAL law of God was/is perfect and that those laws did NOT pass away, but are still in effect. These laws would include such things as stealing, killing, lying, sexual morality, etc.

In other words, although most of us wouldn't argue much about our Christian brother eating a pork chop or some shrimp and practically none of us would make an issue if our Christian sister wore poly/cotton blend clothing or had a garden in the back yard with a variety of vegetables growing in it, but we would certainly say that he or she shouldn't lie or steal or be a homosexual. Why would we say that? Because God's moral law reveals how God sees these things (After all, one cannot get any more direct than the morality given in first person to Moses by God himself).

This leads me to bring up the one point that I believe is ALWAYS missing from these debates and discussions about pornography among Christians. Namely, the issue concerning what God's law says about polygamy in the Bible and what His allowing it tells us about God's nature. It is precisely in this area of morality regarding the law where many (not all) Christians fail to present a logical, consistent argument according to the very rules that they themselves claim to be upholding.

Let me illustrate what I mean......

The main Christian argument against David (or many other Biblical godly men) and his (their) concubines/wives is that "God allowed it back then, but we are in a new day". The very thought of polygamy in Christian circles carries with it a certain "let's not go there" kind of feeling. It is as if it was the one area in our history as God's people that we kind of want to keep "under the table". Many Christians (especially women) see it as a sort of blight on God's record for allowing it. But, like it or not, the Bible is full of the practice, especially among the greatest men of the Bible that we teach our children about. And, there is no getting around the fact that God DID NOT forbid it, but rather allowed it. He said SPECIFICALLY or implied concretely in at least 3 places in His law that men could have more than one wife if they so desired (see Exodus 21:10 - which is only a few verses away from the "Thou shalt not commit adultery" command, Leviticus 18:18 - which tells a man that if he is going to marry more than one wife, they cannot be sisters, and Deuteronomy 21:15 - which would be impossible if God forbade a man from having two wives).

For any of you who have any Theological (seminary) background, you know that this argument ("That was then, this is now") is not a valid argument to present something as being sinful. What makes something sinful is if God said it was sinful (not if people said it was). It also imposes a striking contradiction upon the nature of God himself. If it was not sin back then, then why would it be sin today, and vice versa? Why would God prescribe different standards of MORALITY to humans back then when human nature doesn't change and God is a just and fair God. If we use that as our argument, then we admit (or somehow imply) that God made some errors.....that he had one type of morality for those people back then and another for us today.

As a Christian, I do not believe that God had a change of mind as to what was sin and what was not. He is God! He is omnipotent! He is perfect! He doesn't have to change his mind. His Word even says that. Yet, we have Christians today who talk as if His moral law back then had some serious flaws. And that is exactly where the contradiction comes into play when Christians present their arguments on this matter and others (like homosexuality). The fact is that the same argument given by some Christians that carries the "that-was-then-this-is-now" mentality is the SAME argument that is being used by the homosexuals to UPHOLD homosexuality.

So follow me here for a minute....

1) God shows in his moral law that homosexuality is a sin, but many modern day homosexuals and others who go to church are saying that that is old and outdated (basically accusing the moral law of God that was given back then as being imperfect, or at least implying that God decided to get "up with the times" by now allowing it)

2) God shows in his moral law that having a concubine (or 2nd wife) is NOT a sin, but many modern day Christians say that that is old and outdated (basically accusing the moral law of God that was given back then as being imperfect, or at least implying that God decided to get "up with the times" by NOT allowing it now).

What is truly interesting is that the Christians in group 2 who are using the SAME exact argument as the ones in group 1 actually accuse the homosexuals and say that their belief and their argument is wrong (even though those Christians are doing the exact same thing with the issue of polygamy). They would say that the moral law concerning homosexuality is still in effect, and what is most interesting is that they would use the Bible and the timeless, unchanging nature of God to prove to the homosexual that he/she was wrong.

My question would be that if God's law regarding homosexuality is still in effect, then why is the concubine/2nd wife law not in effect as well, especially since they were given to Moses at the same time. Many of you would answer, "because we (Americans) have made it against the law to have a 2nd wife". But if we are going to follow that logic, then the next logical step would make us conclude that homosexuality is now OK and not a sin as long as we also accept it and make it lawful (which is what the same democracy that voted against polygamy has done -- made it OK). After all, as the argument goes, the will of the voters is what changes the validity of God's rules. I, for one, do not believe this is the case. I believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, as His word says.

The MAIN point, once again, in bringing this entire thought process up about polygamy is not so much to talk about polygamy itself, but rather to discuss what it shows us about what God allows and how it pertains to men's desires as long as those men behave themselves in an upright way regarding their wives. And, the question remains about whether anyone can give a good, solid answer (besides "because times have changed") as to why the godly men of old would be given a different set of rules than the godly men of today. Why did God prefer them over us? Why would God make it easier on them and harder on us? Why would God tell them that having other wives was part of His blessing to them (see Nathan's speech to David) while telling us the same thing was a sin? Why did God call David a "man after my own heart" while he had multiple wives and concubines, yet punish him severely when he took another mans wife?

It is amazing that "under grace", we actually seem to be more under the law than even those who WERE under law. Under the law, as long as they did the right thing, they could and WOULD receive blessings from God. Now, under GRACE, we don't have the freedoms that they had. Under the law, God said specifically that if a man desired more than one wife, he could have them as long as he took care of them (and we see this among the great Patriarchs of our faith). Under Grace, a man can't even think about ever wanting another wife or sexual partner (concubine) .....EVER! Doesn't matter if she is young and unmarried. Doesn't matter if his wife has been in a coma for 10 years and he is climbing the walls sexually while trying to keep everyone in his church happy. All that matters is that if he has the slightest little thought of sexual desire for a woman, he is an adulterer. Right? That is definitely what many modern Christians would want to say. And more importantly, are some of the decent men today (not the jerks who are abusive and treat their wives terribly) who fantasize sexually really any different at their core than the great, godly men of the Bible who wanted concubines? Is their lust for a concubine any different from the patriarchs of the Bible? I don't think so. I often think that it must have been interesting to live back then. God was SOOO different back then (LOL!). A man, if he had the means to do so, could see a beautiful young woman, desire her, and bring her in as a concubine if she or her family was willing.....and he could do it all totally without sinning, and could receive the blessings of God upon his life and family. But somewhere along the way, God decided that what was good for our forefathers was not good enough for us.

I may have belabored the point here, but my goal is to show how 1) we have striking contradictions in our own arguments when we point to the Bible or God's law to argue some things while not abiding by the same principles when arguing other things that we are not so fond of, and 2) how we seem to have transformed the idea of lust into something that (in my opinion) Jesus could not have meant if you look at the WHOLE of scripture. Basically, I believe that since we are a westernized and feminized nation, our interpretations go hand in hand with our cultural norms, not hand in hand with what the Bible clearly teaches. Since our culture has not allowed men to take another wife or concubine, we have, in effect, created the "hooked-on-divorce" society that we live in (and which, by the way, the church has so much less of a problem with, although God clearly condemns it as a sin). Kind of funny when you think about it (in a sick kind of way)......that we as the church label something God had no problem with (polygamy) as the worst kind of sin while at the same time rampantly allowing the very thing God clearly stated over and over that He "hated".

And bringing this full circle, what does all this talk of what God allows in His law have to do with the lust of the eyes (where this whole thread started)? Quite simply, in my opinion, that our modern church culture has applied the whole lust issue a lot further than it was ever meant to go. If men in the Bible could, by God's moral law, have a concubine, and yet still be Godly, then I do not think that it is too much of a stretch to say that Godly men today could conceivably have similar desires and not be the sinful scum of the earth. Just because we may not actually ever take another woman (concubine) because of the society we live in and the churches we attend does not mean that we are horrible people just because we might want one.

The key for men is not that they have absolutely no sexual desires other than their wife……EVER…..OR ELSE. I believe the key is for them to treat their wives honorably and lovingly. This means saying nice things, praising your wife, praising her beauty, telling her how much she means to you, listening to her, etc. Husbands, if seeing sexual images makes you not want to love your wife, then stop doing it. God wants you to love your wife. But wives, if your husband is a good man who loves you dearly and treats you well, but also has the sexual desires that are very common among men, as long as he is not out having actual physical relations with someone, then I suggest backing off a little bit. You simply can’t control every thought process he has, nor force him to love you (any more than he should force you to do things – that is not love. Love freely chooses). And remember, the Bible says very clearly in the New Testament that if a Christian is married to an unbeliever who is willing to stay married to them, then the Christian needs to stay married. The release comes when that unbeliever chooses to leave. Then the Christian spouse is not longer bound to him/her. If God tells us in his word to stay with an unbelieving spouse who still loves us, I believe this includes believing or unbelieving spouses who are decent but who look at pornography. You finding that your spouse looked at pornography (in privacy) while being decent and loving in most other ways is not reason enough for you to leave him/her.

That’s my two cents worth. I welcome your thoughts!

Again with the picking and choosing of what The Bible says is right and wrong. Let's throw it in the fire and start again... unless you're willing to accept every word...
Bottom line is we all worship different Gods depending upon how we see Him. It would be foolish and ignorant to think that the fantasy everyone has about the God they worship is the same, thus we must agree God is simply an individual's construct of what he or she believes to be true.

"Just because we may not actually ever take another woman (concubine) because of the society we live in" is a great example of this... why not take another woman? In the old days this seemed to be ok... can't a man just have a digital woman?? If we are to change our ways because of the society we live in then homosexuality is fine (which by the way it is for anyone with an IQ above average). This is the only argument, you have made it far more complex than it needs to be, God would not have come up with ideas that would fluctuate and not be clear, He is smarter than that. Or the other option which you will read on, He doesn't really care that much and narrow minded mortals have misinterpreted... which is all that can be the case, since a literal understanding would say that if homosexuality is bad, then two wives is fine.

So basically we just have to accept that some people will look at porn, some people won't. Doesn't mean anyone is going to hell since 1) it doesn't exist and 2) My loving God would not be so harsh as to punish them for something He set them up for and 3) I don't believe He's a baby, I believe He is in full control of his feelings and enjoys watching what he created... unlike some mortals... He doesn't take it as seriously... otherwise He's simply set Himself up for failure.

Regarding what Matt said:

I like this guy. Finally, a Christian who isn't preoccupied with "hell".

I agree with you. Quite frankly the idea of a God of infinite compassion would sentence someone to an eternity of torture for what you or I would consider minor sins simply trumps belief.

I've heard it suggested that "hell" was an invention of the Pope Premature around 1000 AD or so. Makes sense. Insecure people often use fear as a rallying tactic. Just look at the last President.

@Rocky

Rocky have you considered the possibility that this information is information you're agreeing with may not be substantiated by scripture?
Have you considered the possibility that those conducting this so called "research" might be seeking ways to legitimize sin? Perhaps even pressured to get the results to demonstrate evidence that leans towards justifying what is referred to in scripture as sin?Produce results that are skewed in that direction in order to continue to receive research grants?

It is easy to be misled by worldly propaganda that seeks to legitimize issues. We as believers must always, always use scripture as the basis for truth and let its message be what informs our world view. As Jesus instructs us to build our lives on the rock of His truth not the findings of fallen citizens of this world. The research that is used to form propositional statements like what you're agreeing with is conducted by people who are fallen, sinful and often seeking to vindicate themselves and justify their sinful views. Always a good and most fair question to ask is are those conducting the research believers in Jesus as well as those who are reporting the results? And are the results being reported accurately?

Peace

Have you considered the possibility that maybe masturbation isn't covered by "scripture"?

Have you considered the possibility that the parts condemning homosexuality were written by people without the benefit of 2000 years of research?

Have you considered the possibility that the research was conducted by objective scientists doing their jobs?

Have you considered that suggesting that scientists skew their research to receive research grants without evidence is a blatant violation of commandment #9, "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

Have you considered that the research has been done by BOTH believers and non-believers in Jesus?

In other words, have you considered they are right and you are wrong?

@ David

Thanks for your input and concern. Yes, I think it is important to be cautious quoting studies and especially "sex surveys", because: how were the respondents chosen?, did they volunteer?, etc. did they indicate their religious views?.... those type of results are a little harder to acquire.

I think you were responding to my links offered in my post on March 3, above. Not sure why you were throwing caution before these, since the subject matter of those websites is the benefits of sexuality, for men and women. (One study tried to restrict those benefits to those who masturbated frequently, but I took issue with that.)

My final conclusion was a philosophical one.