Protesters from Hell

This was heartbreaking to watch....made me cry because these people are just missing it. It's pretty awful and I definitely know why it was hard for you to write the rest of that chapter! Craig, keep fighting the good fight.

They are a hard group to LOVE.....but with Jesus all things are possible

This was a TOUGH one to watch. The guys on the street... totally off-base. But thanks for being honest about your shortcoming too, man. Cuz yeah, it was just too easy to let emotions flair up. It was sad to see your team yelling at those guys. But you guys tried, and again, thanks for your honesty about it. Shows a lot - being real about your team's own struggle with loving everyone - even the men full of hate. Thanks, guys.

"Love Wins"

The girl in the clip said that the protesters were calling all the girls sluts and whores, and saying all kinds of hateful things.

Is that all you have is some hearsay against these preachers? I would think that you would have something on film that backs up your accusations.

And yes, God is angry with the wicked every day, and He hates all workers of iniquity, and the wrath of God abides on them that do not have the Son (Psalm 5:5, 7:11, John 3:36).

Jesus never said to go and preach just love, but to go and preach the gospel, which is the goodness and severity of God (Mark 16:15, Romans 11:22)

The preaching of the gospel is foolishness to them who are perishing, and Christ was not crucified for going around saying "I love you!" As a matter of fact, he never publicly preached I love you either, but admonished the DISCIPLES to love one another as He had loved them, which would prove that they were Jesus' disciples.

You were not loving by **********, Craig. And I am praying there are others who are not spellbound by your spin of the events in that clip.

You guys preach a lopsided message that tickles the ear of the sinner, and gives them a false hope in God. And on the Day of Judgment, there will be hundreds of thousands of people, yes, every single one that got a handout from you guys, who will come to you and say "I thought you said Jesus loved me? Why am I being judged for my sinful lust and covetous lifestyle? Why didn't you warn me about HELL?

You had better stop preaching to make friends, because Jesus said "if they hated me, they will hate you. The servant is not greater than his master!" (John Ch. 15, 17:14)

Psalm 1 says the blessed man does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly or stand in the way of sinners. Psalm 26:5 says even more about who to be associated with, Psalm 101:3 says I will not set anything evil before my eyes.

Eph 5:1-11 says it all!
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Now Craig says it doesn't matter what a person does for a living, Jesus loves them anyhow.............WHAT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

So I can do whatever I want and I will still be a Christian no matter what? Even be a porno producer and a masturbating covetous adulterer at heart?

Wow, you guys have gone off the deep end. After seeing Craig assault those two guys, I can only imagine what else he does behind the scenes. I say they should have arrested you.

Half way through watching this weeks episode, I realized the guys (and girl) you met are the same people who come to my college campus every month and say these things. It's terrible. Once a month they visit and stand in the most populated areas, calling out people's sins from a 100 ft away. I once saw a girl break down because he said she was lesbian because her parents must have molested her as a child. Luckily, there is now a group that speaks as soon as they leave about how Christ really feels about us. I actually began to cry (tears of joy) the first time I saw this new group testify to God's love, after these crazy "preachers" spent the entire afternoon condemning random kids. Im sorry that these guys upset you Craig. The good thing is even Jesus got angry in the bible. But a holy anger against injustice and holier than thou religious people who confuse the message of the cross. I live in south florida, and I am so glad you guys came down here to tell porn stars Jesus loves them!

Grace and Peace

@Anonymous
"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" - James 4:11-12

I'm sorry, did you write that to me, or to Craig.

You know, the guy who said "bonehead protesters, idiot protesters, haters, etc?"

The truth hurts man, and you guys are duped if you think xxxchurch is preaching the gospel found in the pages of scripture.

Is is a self-centered, neo-evangelical mishmash of self-help suggestions that never address the core of the matter:

The Living God is OFFENDED by sin, and there must be RECONCILIATION between the offender and the offended.

Just because we know Christ died for sinners is not enough. There must be repentance and true contrition for sin, and a willingness to GIVE UP EVERYTHING FOR THE ONE WHO GAVE UP EVERYTHING!

The OT prophets preached that same thing, John the Baptist preached it, Jesus preached the same thing, and Peter, and Paul, and every true Christian will SOUND AN ALARM over sin, judgment, and the heart of God that is broken OVER AND OVER AND OVER again by billions of sinners every day.

You guys are way too fluffy and nice for Jesus.

They killed Him you know?

Oh, and Leigh, how does Jesus REALLY feel about us?

Please, enlighten us!

And as far as condemning someone, Jesus said if you do not believe on the only Son of God, you are condemned already (John 3:18).

How can someone condemn another person who is ALREADY CONDEMNED?

Typical fluffy lovey-dovey hogwash gospel.

Jesus said THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE, and I TESTIFY THAT THE WORKS THE MEN OF THE WORLD ARE EVIL! (John 7:7, 15:25)

If you read through John 15, you will see how Jesus expounded on how the world really felt about Him, His Father, and what the disciples should expect from the world.

SteveOh, bless you. It was great to get to know a little about the person behind the posts.

I know this will not change the hearts that are so sure they know all but how is God supposed to speak into the hearts of people if they never even open the Bible?

Luke 7:36-50 (New International Version)

Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[a] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

*************

People on the outside deemed her unworthy and He made it clear no one is so far gone that one can not be forgiven and saved. He went to the cross for her, me, and everyone else. No one is exempt from having sent Him to the cross to open the way to the Father. He went to the cross in the greatest act of love.

Blessings,
Survivor

I'm not going to sit here and fight fire with fire, but I will say a couple things. First of all, Someone isn't going to be thrown in jail for doing something like that, that's a ridiculous thing to even say. I do think that the protestor WAS over the line. He has no right to say those things, especially over a loud speaker trying to embarrass someone. I know the protester isn't sin free as he claims, because we all fall short of the glory, whether you're holding a 20' sign or not. So get yourself off your pedestal and get back to work.

Second of all, all the anonymity here by the protesters is ridiculous. If you really truly believe what you do, and are fighting for it then slap your name on it and claim it.

In reality these arguments aren't going to go anywhere, and soon enough you'll drift to the next ministry that you don't agree with and start flooding their message boards and forums with verses and verses that you think no religious person besides yourselves has ever read.
Please realize that we are all fighting to save souls for Christ, one way or another. You are no better than we are, and we are no better than you. Take some humble pills and realize it.

...Lessee here..

Number of People, Craig and X3 have helped:

be honest about their porn addiction and do something about it: thousands

Get women out of the industry: several

Help get producers of porn to quit: at least two

Share the Gospel: thousands


And for Anonymous:


be honest about their porn addiction and do something about it: 0

Get women out of the industry: 0

Help get producers of porn to quit: 0

Share the Gospel: I'll say 20, but then again his' isn't really the Gospel now is it...

I'm not getting in the argument because as humans, we are stubborn and our views aren't changed very easily. xxxchurch has helped me and I'm only 16! As I was saying before, we do not change ourselves, by the power of God we are changed. If we are to compare whos ministry (the protestors vs. xxxchurch) it looks like xxx church has been ordained by God. I mean think about it, how does the Bible get accepted into porn shows if God is not a part of it. Another thing in the video that bothers me is the fact that these protestors are blameless. It says right in the Bible that we all have fallen short of the glory of God. That means that all of us have sinned and all of us have betrayed Him. It does not matter who put Him on the cross because if he didn't die on the cross, we would still have our sins on our backs. He had to die on the cross to take our sins upon Him. By dying on the cross He took the consequence for all of us. His last words were," It is finished." By saying that he meant that we are free are to have a personal and intimate relationship with Him because the boundary had been removed. It says that God can't even look upon sin but because He died on the cross, he made us perfect children of God. That does not mean we will never sin again, but it means that he forgives us.

I think, after watching the video, that what we have here is a problem based in perception and conflicting tactics. XXXChurch is telling people at a porn show that Jesus loves them - I believe this to be true. The protestors were telling the attendees that they are going to hell - I believe this to be true *IF* they do not change their ways. The difference is that XXXChurch is using a message of love to get their attention and show them that they don't have to go to hell; Jesus died on the cross because he loves each and every one of us.

You can't save people or bring them to God by telling them that they are already condemned and that Jesus hates them. He doesn't hate the sinner, he hates the sin. We, as Christians, have all been called to bring people to Christ not turn them away by telling them that they are going to hell. If you tell people that they cannot be saved they won't be. That is the opposite of what we, as Christians, are supposed to be doing.

I appreciate (and have been touched by) the message and the work of XXXChurch. Keep up the good work, guys!

Hi, Craig,
I really appreciate your boldness for the Gospel! Awesome! I’d join you if I were not so far away. We’re hoping to do a porn and pancake breakfast soon here.

I was really moved by this last video … I love your honesty! Wow! It takes guts to show that! I guess for me it brought up two things at least …

1. Your ministry is not one of confrontation. It chooses the softer side of love and is a voice that ministers to those caught in the trap of porn. That is a pioneering place to go, and very valuable. My thought is that since you are non-confrontational, even in the face of great evil, your response to the preacher outside was out of character for your ministry. Your approach is to befriend and show unconditional love – even take on road trips – those with whom you deeply disagree. I think it is a temptation for you to engage in confrontation. You are not set up for that. It’s out of character for your ministry. Maybe there can be another ministry that goes along with that girl’s idea of giving a cup of cold water to them … “Jesus loves offensive preachers that cry out in the streets, break bruised reeds and snuff out smoldering wicks …” or something like that. Finding a way to do good to those who hate you, etc. Your outburst of anger just goes to show that God isn’t directing you there … it was an act of the flesh, not of the Spirit. I don’t condemn you for that … you were trying your best at the moment, and that’s what you do, right? :) I’m just encouraging you to not get distracted or derailed from your Cause.

2. Perhaps you could help clarify your position on “love” in these videos. What frustrates some of your brothers and sisters is that they hear you say things like “Jesus loves you no matter what you do” but the message of “escape” or “ministry” to those caught in this trap is not clear to them. I don’t know, but if there was at least a message of “we’re here to help people who are struggling or who need support” was given in each video, like it is in some, it might help clarify your cause. From the outside, it looks to some like you are just giving a pat on the back to those in porn. It’s a fine line to express, and I realize that if someone reads all your stuff, they get the whole message … it’s just that the “acceptance” side of “neither do I judge you” is so loud that “go and sin no more” gets missed by some.

Thanks so much for all you do! I pray for you, your family and your team! Grace and peace to you, bro!

You People had better Repent! You need to to listen to those Street Preachers and turn to Jesus While you still have time! You guys need a good Bible Spanking! **********

Repent XXX! Hell awaits all you sinners who have not repented!

Hold Fast friends, the greatest opposition Jesus faced did not come from the pagans, but from the hyper religious. Keep up the good work!... and don't let them get to you.

One more thing, i had to point out the poor mans ignorance about the KJV. While some of the KJV is translated from the Greek and Hebrew, often times the translators worked from the Latin Vulgate. So some of what he have in the KJV is actually a translation of a translation. Most scholarly books today will point out that the KJV is probably the most inaccurate translation we have in the english language... and should not be our primary source fro studying Scripture. Knowing a little greek and hebrew myself its easy to see why they would say that. All that to say, we would all be wise to show a little more humility about boasting in any english version of scripture. They are all translations, and every translation involves interpretation. Sure God can speak to us through them all, but before we form any strong convictions about doctrines and such we should go to the original text (or find someone who can go there for us) to see what the text is really saying, or at least find out why different translations have choses to translate passages in different ways.

Amazing how bold "Anonymous" can be at the keyboard. What a joke. Best quote from the video is when Doug of Bema Ministries says: "Love is what got us into this whole mess."

Hey Anonymous, you hide behind a cloak of secrecy refusing to let people know who is writing and/or dealing with. Then you have the audacity to say:

"Wow, you guys have gone off the deep end. After seeing Craig assault those two guys, I can only imagine what else he does behind the scenes."

Are you kidding me? "Behind the scenes?" Your whole thread of posts are behind the scenes, Mr Anonymous.

I can handle your perspective, though I disagree. I appreciate your freedom to dissent. But, come on...have enough of a backbone to stand and not rattle off verbal assaults, half truths, and red herring arguments from beneath a shield of "Anonymous."

Jason

"anonymous", Im sorry that you disagree with what I had to say about God and his love for humanity. I cannot be sorry, however, because this is what I think Jesus feel towards us. XXXchurch, myself and others, believe this, I venture, because Jesus consistently treats people with dignity and love throughout the gospels. Likewise, he is the first to call condemning religious leaders "sons of hell." You may remember the story where the religious leaders tell Jesus that his judgment of them offends them, to which Jesus goes further to say that it's because of how they make converts. He says that they tell people to repent and completely change their lives. THEN they leave, and offer no help or direction on how to do that.

Sure, people who sin (btw that's all of us, unless you're claiming to be sinless which, wow, you might be...), everyone needs to repent. But if you've never known God, how do you know what that looks like? What happens when you entirely reverse the direction of your life? Where will your livelihood come from? How will you know where to find a community who believes in this Jesus you have just given your life to? It seems simple for people who have known Christ for years, but I will guarantee you a person walking out of a porn show might have some questions. It is innefective to tell someone to repent, and then leave them to fend for themselves.

When Jesus approaches sinners in the bible, he stops people from stoning them, he has dinner with them, he lets them wash his feet with their perfume.... Paul talks again and again in the new testament about God's unfailing love for the world.

Obviously you're passionate about this. If we decided to break this down into, how is the best way to convert people? (which btw you should read how paul and timothy did it in acts... specific the example in Ephesus concerning the temple of artemis) I don't think yelling at people is the best "tactic", if you will. Jesus says my yoke is light. He lets people come to redemption by their own admittance, not by shouting it out through a bull horn. You don't know these people, and like you or me, they deserve all the love Jesus has to offer them. The bible says that if you do not have love, you're like a gong or a clashing cymbal.

I wont be sure until I die if Jesus is all about love. But when I love people, I feel like I am in tune with the pulse of the universe. XXXchurch is a bold ministry, but Jesus himself made disciples out of prostitutes and tax collectors. He did this by talking to people and reassuring them that God is close to their pain. It might be hard to see the bible any other way if you have been raised in a fundamentalist milieux. But I pray that everyone would come to see the unmatched power of change that love can bring about.

Grace and Peace

I think it is time for Craig to do a debate on what Jesus would do with the 2 guys on the video and others. Who knows maybe a friendship of sorts may form like it did with Ron Jeremy?

God bless you all and what you are striving to do. Jesus sat and had dinner with the sinners sharing his life with them and loving them first. I don't remember him throwing tables around and getting angry with them. He still told it as it is but in a loving and respectful way. He did have righteous anger towards the Pharisees (Religious Scholars). They ultimately hatched the plan to kill him and if you look at who stayed as believers in Christ, it was those sinners that he talked to, loved and shared his life with. Not those who said they were sinless, they were experts etc. Yes repentence has to happen but it has to come from the person genuinely and scare tactics don't work at all. It is up to the individual and there is not special formula on the best way to become a Christian because it is a journey and it is different with each one of us.

God did not make robots to love him but free thinking people.

God does love everyone, not the sin but who each person is. We are all made in God's image.

Everyone of us needs to pray each day for the lost as well as thank God that he led us each to him.

Anyway, God bless and have a great upcoming Summer! Keep doing what you do!

James

My exposure to alcohol came at a young age. I can remember drinking as early as 8, smoking at 9, drugs at 11. I was using and drinking regularly in high school and by the time I graduated, was a full blown alcoholic. Being bulimic at the same time, discovering methamphetamines (speed) was a relief. No longer did I have to make myself throw up anymore, for my appetite disappeared altogether. Within less than a years’ time, my life was a shambles. I was in the first of three terribly abusive relationships I would experience and stay in.

After being forced into rehab and failing to stay sober, my parents kicked me out at 19. With no other option but to stay sober for a while, I went to stay with a family kind enough to take me in, but one that didn’t really want me there. Months later I got pregnant, had an abortion (the first of four), fell back into bulimia, and found myself in another abusive relationship. A week before my 20th birthday, I tried to kill myself and wound up in the ER where they didn’t know whether or not I would make it … It was there, that God spoke into this atheist’s heart and made me a believer.

You would think that would be the happy ending, but it isn’t. With only a vague understanding that He was there and real, with no one to come alongside me, with no one to speak His TRUTH and LOVE into my life, it would be another nine years before I would find the place He had for me. That would mean a few years attempting to stay sober on my own, and then five years spent working in the adult entertainment industry working to support myself and my drug habit, when I finally did relapse.

This, of course, is the short version … I love the part of the story where God begins to woo me home, where He begins calling me to listen to sermons on the way to "work", where He actually finds me a wonderful church to attend, where I start sending men home that I'm supposed to take my clothes off for, where His Word begins to jump off of the page for me … All of this before I changed! He never lost sight of me. He never put me out because I wasn’t producing. He never counted me as a lost cause. That is how we’re supposed to look at a lost and dying world. That’s how He longs for us to see His other children. And that’s what I want, too ... This is what our God does. He redeems, rebuilds, and restores.So, the next time someone asks you ,”Who would Jesus have hung out with?”, don’t get stuck answering “the tax collector”. I challenge you to update it. Think abusive spouse, sex addict, prostitute, stripper, porn star, abortion doctor, rapist, child molester … If you’re uncomfortable or upset with the notion of that, then your’s is the heart He longs to get at. His love may have boundaries, but it has no limits … It’s time we stopped putting limits on His love and started seeing the world through His eyes.
So, when I ask the question,”Who would Jesus have hung out with?”, don’t get stuck answering “the tax collector”. I challenge you to update it. Think abusive spouse, sex addict, prostitute, stripper, porn star, abortion doctor, rapist, child molester … If you’re uncomfortable or upset with the notion of that, then your’s is the heart He longs to get at. His love may have boundaries, but it has no limits … It’s time we stopped putting limits on His love and started seeing the world through His eyes.

Keep walking the path.

BTW other posters: Satan is a proof-texter too.

Unfortunately it's people like this that do more to turn people away from Christ then to bring them to him.
I don't think I could do what you do, going into the lion's den to reach people. At this point in time I would the event would probably harm me.

Hi Craig and everyone else.

@Anonymous

Shouldn't this really be about getting people to know Jesus and help them quit porn and make their lives better?

Do you really believe that yelling that hurtful stuff at these people, will help anyone of them?

Would you be turned if someone called you those things?

First step is to get to know Jesus and that he loves you.

Love is important, and people will realize the consequences when they get to know Jesus.

Don't start out by insulting and judging them, then you will end up like the Phelps Roper family.

God bless xxxchurch, and lots of love from Denmark

I heard about your ministry through MTV. i knew as a Southern Baptist, that no one in my church would be doing this or would even give money or time to help your cause. I as a 17 year old kid know that what you guys are doing is so much greater then what that man at the corner screaming at the people was doing. your trying to reach the souls of the lost, he was damning them, who wants to go to a church who hates porn stars and ex porn, and porn addicts. that man needs to read up on his bible he who is sinless cast the first stone, and in GOD's eyes every sin hurts just the same. Christ was crusified for Everyone to become Christ-like . I myself Would love to come join ya'll in ur ministry.

@Meg Thank you for your beautiful story, it brought tears to my eyes. That is the Jesus I want to follow...

You know that they reminded me A LOT of the Jewish leaders that Jesus had to face in His days on earth. It saddens me to know that they know literally nothing of the ministry that Jesus established for us, but because God still loves them I do as well with all my heart.

Anonymous,

I do see where you are coming from, but did Jesus not "hang out" with the wicked and unjust? Why did He? I know it is because no one else would have. You say that Craig was out of line, but I don't know that you don't see the vision and goal of this ministry! If you did then you wouldn't be arguing. You can't just storm in and hit someone with bible and expect good results. No you have to start with love and teach of God's love for us (EVERYONE)! Then you teach them of the sin in their lives and how the things that they do personally and for a living are not pleasing to God. God hates sin and not the sinner. If you aren't suppose to make friends then how do you save others? Think of it this way, if someone saved your life would you not consider them a friend? You don't think that people don't hate them for what they do? You will never be able to please everyone. The sad thing is that most likely the people that hate them for what they do are people who profess to be Christians. You aren't suppose to hate them because they hate you. No you are to show love even when they don't love you back.

@Meg God bless you and others like you who are on a similar journey.

I love the question you asked "Who would Jesus have hung out with?" because I really think we all have to ask ourselves that very question.

The hardest people I have had to try to force myself to love as Christ would are the overly Religious and Judgemental Christians out there that in the very nature of what they are doing are playing God themselves!

James 4 verses 11, 12 (KING JAMES)
11"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"
Here is a link of some Theology behind this verse: http://www.lakehillsonline.org/BlogEntry.aspx?entry_id=152846

Golden rule of understanding the Bible, check all of the passages that speak of Judgement rather then what serves your purpose or agenda. Watch out when you say the words "I am not a sinner anymore" We all still Sin everyday, only Jesus Christ can make that claim. Remember when Jesus asked "the sinless one among you, go first: Throw the stone" at the Adulterous Women, no one threw a thing.

xxxchurch is a grace filled ministry which is directly related to what God calls us to do: Romans 5:20 (Again I use the King James because like other translations, it says the same message and alot of people are hung up that it is truly the only version to read nothing else is God's word)
"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Even using the King James the same truths apply and are spoken in other translations such as the Message.

So God bless you Meg, I can't say that I can fully understand the pain you have gone through but praise God that we both can share in his endless Love, Grace and Mercy.

God please be with Meg and so many others that are out there experiencing the brutal life that this world can dish out. May you be with them and rescue them from their pain and suffering. Pray that you will be with all of us who are your children to love everyone as Christ did.

Amen

Jesus hung out with sinners.
You can't blame non-Christians for sin, they are going to do what they are going to do. No sense being surprised or upset about it.
You don't change your ways before you accept Jesus, you receive Jesus, and that is what then brings forth the change.

Its not our place to Judge, it is up to God; All will be judged, eventually and the only thing that matters is if you have believed Jesus.
Belief in Jesus did is not the same as knowing, you can know it is true but you act upon what you believe.

Actions speak louder than words. They will know we are Christians by our love

This video was really something else. Unfortunately, one thing it was not was surprising. It is so astonishing to me how quickly people will use the Gospel of Condemnation over the Gospel of Grace.

When I saw this video with the XXXChurchers at the convention and the protestors outside, I only pictured the Pharisees saying to Christ, "Why do you sit with sinners and tax-collectors?"

There are so many great illustrations of Christ showing love. The adulterous woman (which is a disputed passage as far as manuscripts go) is a great example. Here is a woman who was caught IN THE ACT and yet, Christ says, "I no neither condemn you." Another interesting fact is a woman caught in adultery would have been stripped bare in the community before her stoning. Christ didn't run away (though it may be why He started writing on the ground:)

The fact is, while I do think it is necessary for people to understand repentance they must also realize that God loves them. I was infuriated to hear people say, "God does not love them." John 3:16 says, "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD!" Anyways, I appreciate the willingness of xxxchurch to head into the dark corners of American society for the sake of the Gospel and pray they continue it!

Hard to tell just when the average passer by would EVER be compelled to hear CHRIST's message of love through all the angry yelling and condemnation. NO ONE is going to go to heaven with a black eye, having rolled over, played dead and agreed that this angry man is right and that man's savior is the way, truth and life. God doesn't need our help and sure doesn't need that man's help. Thankfully, Jesus Christ 's sacrificial act was thorough enough to cover that man's continuing sin AND mine :-)
Go 3X.

What an amazing ministry. This was my first watch and I love the team's boldness and willingness to be a light where most Christians look away. People are so desperate for the love of God. Keep on lovin' on people. Love will save the day.

I would love SO MUCH to say that the people across the street are completely void of knowledge of Christ. I feel angry at people who use such methods of spreading the gospel, really I do. It's something I struggle with every time some one with similar practices comes to my college campus.

But here's the final word:
"Romans 14:4
Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should."


Here's a secondary word: my faith is a product of such practices.

I can trace my spiritual heritage back to similar messages that were preached on the campus of UT Martin, many many years ago. A boy heard this message, which sounds so much like hate and anger, and he was angered by it. He knew it was all wrong, and set out to prove it. He grabbed his Bible in his dorm room (which he had read several times over), and went to show how that preacher was wrong. But... he couldn't...

One of the larger and more outreach-focused campus ministries had many groups who had weekly Bible studies. This guy walked into one of them, a rather large man with his home made Jewelry, leathers, and mo-hawk (real one, with the sides of his head shaved), and at the end of the lesson he put his head in his hands and cried openly.

Cut to a few days later, he explains to his friends that "I don't say things like 's**t' because I don't want to embarrass Jesus with my life any more." His best friend hears this, and is angry. "Who is he to judge ME?!" he thinks.

The guy with the mo-hawk, just a couple of weeks later, worked his first youth camp. He's now a minister, showing the power of God in his life and in others' lives.

His best friend was a youth minister for a few years, a campus minister for about 13 years, and now is a professor at a Christian school. He's also very active in the Christian Motorcyclist Association, and goes to Little Sturgis every year to talk to the three-piece patches about Christ. While he was a campus minister, he taught me what REAL Christianity looks like, and now I'm going to go into campus ministry.


Incidentally, when I told my mentor about my problem with Pornography a few years ago, he said "Lemme tell you about this cool ministry made for guys like you. I LOVE these guys..."
and that's why I'm here now. It's impossible to say for sure that I ever would have heard of XXX Church if it weren't for these kinds of "hate" messages.

Perhaps the first part of Romans 14:1 is more appropriate. "Welcome those who are weak in faith" I think they tried.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a reprobate saved.

@ Jeff:

Yes, I'm familiar with that. I think that actually more plays into the point I'm making, though.

See, in that verse, Paul is talking to Christians about how to deal with other Christians who believe things differently from them. Some Christians in Rome in the time said that it's a sin to eat meat, because no meat could be found that wasn't sacrificed to Idols or part of pagan worship in some way before it was sold to be cooked and eaten. Others, like Paul, said "That god/goddess doesn't even exist, so why worry about it?"

Paul was telling the ones who DO eat meat to welcome the ones with weaker faith (that label "weaker" being given to the ones who don't eat meat,) and not to eat meat around them because it causes problems, and the Kingdom is about more than just food.

So, applying that verse means that XXX Church would Welcome the protesters. Or, that the protesters would welcome XXX Church, depending on which group is labeled "strong in faith" or "weak in faith." Also, if you want to put into play cultural implications, the label "weaker in faith" being applied to those who don't eat meat could even imply that "they're catering to your needs here because you're not strong enough. You need to grow and strengthen yourself." Some wouldn't look at the Roman culture's implications in this verse, and I won't hold that against them. But I'm just saying.


Just a question, I don't see that you've posted on this thread until now. To whom are you referring when you say "They?"

Do you mean "They (the protesters) welcomed the missionaries of XXX Church/the goers to the convention?" Or do you mean "They (The XXX Church) welcomed the protesters?"

Either way, I might be inclined to disagree with you. Even Craig said in this very post that he has issues dealing with these guys in a loving way.

Loving the religious, in my experience, starts with avoiding the temptation to automatically write them off as "Just religious people who don't really know Jesus." The fact of the matter is, I have to accept that they are really genuine about what they say and believe, and that they are trying to follow God's will. Not the way I would follow it, but that they are. Last year, the last time Craig and XXX Church met that man (the time that they dragged his sign into the road and said "Jesus came to heal the sick, and I'm so tired of people showing off how healthy they are."), I WATCHED them bring a man out of the porn convention. He walked away from the convention, and sat with them all day the next day, taking part of their ministry.

When some one says "XXX Church is not of God," how do we respond? "You have to look at the fruits, man!" These guys have fruit. It looks different, it's not the same, and it's not as much, but it is still one person who did not go to that porn convention to indulge in sin. Isn't that a success?


I know it hurts the pride. I can point you to a blog post that a very well known evangelist with Way Of The Master (actually, Ray Comfort himself) dedicated to me, and all the reasons why I'm a false prophet heading toward Hell. (incidentally, he also cited my "spreading the false gospel of love" as a reason). His hurtful words toward me were used by God to teach me about the Body of Christ, and unity (kinda), and love, and I KNOW that XXX Church recognizes the same thing happening in their lives with these protesters. That very day, they calmed down and responded with love (they brought him something to drink). Just before he wrote this post, Craig taught MANY readers about the lesson of Love that he learned. I'm just trying to encourage the readers and followers of this blog and ministry to put special effort into doing the same.

Actually I posted a short positive comment a few days ago. Not that that matters.

As far as the Romans passage goes, it seems pretty clear that "weaker" Christians are almost always those who are more legalistic in their outlook. In other words the angry Christian protesters and Ray Comfort ARE weaker in their faith than the folks of 3X.

I agree, though, that this does not excuse us from loving them, and in fact calls us to love them all the more (hard as that may be).

As for me, I am but a simple sinner and servant of God saved by faith. I am in recovery from lust, and sometimes victorious through Christ, and sometimes not because of my own weakness and sin. Like many here, no doubt, I have realized that I am captive to my lust and need the intervention of Jesus Christ to deliver me. Recovery is a life-long road, however. Deliverance is day by day, sometimes even moment by moment.

My own personal journey of faith is somewhat similar to others her also, in that I became "altogether Christian" ( to use a phrase coined by John Wesley) partly in response to errors I vaguely intuited in the form of Christianity presented by various evangelical, fundamentalist and charismatic groups that I was exposed to in my youth. Unlike many here, aparently, however, I do ot come from the Bible belt, but from the upper Midwest, where I think the American religious experience has been somewhat more nuanced all along.

I enjoy this interchange. God bless you and God bless 3X.

I just graduated from a decidedly Christian college (Asbury College in Wilmore, KY, near Lexington--Craig spoke at Southland Christian Church a while back). I'll never forget the two days in April '07 when a couple of street judges with their 20' signs came to the campus and started condemning people left and right. One of my close friends wound up going to counseling afterwards it was so bad. They also condemned a couple for what they saw as "fornication"--the couple was married and holding hands on the way to the cafeteria, for crying out loud!

It's like they completely omitted entire passages of scripture from their studies like some sort of Marcionist do-over, where everything even hinting that God can be loving was just stricken out. It's a tragedy, really.

People just need to read the Book.

1 Peter 2:1
"So get rid of all evil behavior. Be done with all deceit, hypocrisy, Jealousy, and all UNKIND SPEECH"

I think it's cool you guys really don't want God's word twisted I get that... I'm all about that.
But I believe you guys are SO far off, sorry if that offends you, I don't know what bible you're reading but I'm not getting what you folks are preaching out of it...

I think XXXChurch has a great ministry barring good fruit, I am a prime example as a kid I was addicted to porn, hated it but just couldn't stop. I had a perverse spirit oppressing me, but praise Christ for setting me though his word, (which lead me to accountability I.E X3 watch! woot!) and lots of prayer.

Now I don't think Craig Gross is perfect, but he is human like you and me, and has potential to be tempted and TO sin. It happens don't lie and say you don't sin cause you just did there you LIED :P

I just ask you has you're picketing bared any fruit for Christ?

Cause I don't hear you preaching about salvation all I hear you preaching about is Sin and judgement. I honestly can picture Christ looking at you shaking his head asking you "What about my sacrifice?" it took that sin away (and yes for all that believe AND repent which means to turn away)

and one more that you say God dose not speak about love? "For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only son. So everyone that believes in him shall NOT perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

P.S Craig had every reason to get angry you ( in the yellow shirt mainly) was VERY disrespectful. how about you do on to others?
You got what was coming to ya there sorry...:)

Craig, thanks for everything you do.

I would like to think I would take a deep breath and love on the guy instead of getting in his face like that, but I can't say that until I have actually done it. I'm also not going to try to pass judgment over whether it was right to take the mic like that. I don't know the whole story. I don't know what's going in your heart or the other guy's heart. That's between the man and God.

I can say that I've confronted a similar mall preacher before, and it ended up resulting in a civilized discussion where I ended up addressing the crowd with Jesus' love...to the agreement of the mall preacher! Being overseas now, I almost miss seeing those kinds of folks because it's such a ripe opportunity to love on them AND their targets, even when both sides think I'm one of "them."

The truth is that I used to be one of those KJV-Only religious haters of sinners when I first started pursuing the faith. I'm also a wretched porn addict. I'm not pulling myself out of it; I alone am powerless to do so. I'm holding on looking to Jesus like Peter walking on the water. Occasionally, I rely on my own power and fall in. He, not I, then picks me up and gets me going again.

I also find myself occasionally falling into the trap of "Thank God I'm not like that Pharisee." Who am I if I'm judging on that guy? I'm a sinner just the same, only made "different" or "better" by the blood of Christ and nothing of my own doing. Please, please don't fall into that same trap! It's a horrible place to be.

I'm looking forward to the future of this ministry and the last chapter of your book. Romans 8:1. Keep charging!

Caleb...amen to that brother. We all come as sinners before Christ....if everyone had to wait for perfection before coming to church, every church in our city...in our state...in our nation...in our world would be empty. Our churches would sit empty and pastorless. Fortunately, by the grace of God, we are asked to come as we are to Him....then, and only then, will hearts and lives start to change.

I understand people not being comfortable with sins of others, perhaps because it makes them deal with the sins and short comings in their own lives....however, when it comes down to it: a sin is a sin no matter how big or small...before we start taking splinters out of someone elses eye, perhaps we should ask for assistance with taking the splinters out of our own....

God bless!
Brian W.

As I saw that guy taunt Craig, something stirred deep within me - like he was taunting me - and I was responding exactly like Craig did ... stunned, angry, speechless ... and as I took the time to think about it, I wondered what I might say ... You see, the taunting of that preacher is like the taunting I've seen in porn that says, "See, you want it, don't you? Admit it!" It makes me react exactly like I felt when I saw Craig there with that guy ... facing the taunting of the Devil himself. It speaks to the presence of evil in my heart ... evil I know is there, that I wish was not there ... that shames me ... BUT (I love that word in Scripture) that does not define me anymore. Not since Isaiah 54. Not since Zechariah 3.1-5. Not since I came to know the Grace of Jesus. So it came to me that I would like to have said to those taunters of my soul, "You speak to the evil desires in my heart. Yes, they are there, but there is something much greater than that within me; it is the grace if God that overcomes the world. You preach the law, which has no power to change the heart. We preach good news of hope forgiveness and love to those lost in sin. You preach John’s prophecy of fleeing the wrath to come. We preach Jesus' message of entering the world and befriending the lost and we know the legalists will call us "gluttons & drunkards" just as they did Jesus. John said it himself, “I must decrease & Jesus must increase"; He who made water to wine came to change hearts by the power of His Word. He did not come to judge but to seek & save the lost, the friend of tax collectors and sinners."

This made me really angry. I know we r supposed to understand Gods love and be kinda to others but is there really a line? I mean you guys totally did the right things. i remember going to cornerstone and people were like that and like saying how the drums were "of the devil" it was crazy. but yeah u guys r really great. i wish i could get involved and work with u guys.

I even said it myself; they made me angry.

It's hard work to love people like that, and to recognize Christ in their lives, but that's what we're called to do.

Just like SteveOh said at the top, anything's possible with Christ living in us.


I wonder if XXX Church should have a specific person whose job is to minister to such protesters. Call them the Designated Protester Relations Coordinator. Yes, I did put about 30 seconds into thinking up that catchy title. ^_^

I don't think any of us would ever want to be scared into marrying someone. Yet Doug and Vera think they can scare people into loving Jesus? How does that work? And, if from time to time someone actually DOES break down in fear due to their signs and screaming, how long is that new "convert" going to last?

I've conversed via youtube email with Vera, wife of the man holding the signs. She's an intelligent woman, yet very set in her ways. Arguing back and forth isn't going to get her or Doug (her husband) to change what they're doing, but I am confident Vera is open to listen to God and I pray a few seeds are planted that change their ministry for the better.

Regardless of how much I hate the way they present their message, I'll admit it takes guts to stand on a street corner and make yourself an object of annoyance. That willingness to speak up would be valuable with the right message attached to it.

If I was at that show I would have loved to ask Doug if I could use his bullhorn for a minute after saying something like this: "Can I use your bullhorn for a minute to show you what I think would be more effective?" and if he allowed it, say something like this:

"You're not going to find what you're looking for inside that show. Believe me, I know it! I used to be in there too! Porn is never going to fill that empty void inside. It's always going to leave you feeling empty and guilty. If you'd like to know the answer on what WILL fill that void, please come over and talk to us. We promise not to judge you, but to love you. We're confident we have the answers you're looking for!"

I think an approach like THAT, combined with their obvious willingness to stand on a corner, would change lives!

Rob Penn,

That is a good idea. I think I'd love doing something like that.

Donny's got it right! Don't just talk about how evil and mean they are, recognize what is there that Christ sees and loves, capitalize on it.

My name is Vera from Vera and Doug mentioned above. I thought I would share a little about myself. I have been saved for 34 years. I'm a mom of 6. I have one married daughter. I have been married to the same man for 23 years. He is a good man. He is a great husband and I wouldn't trade him for the world. My girls hope they can find someone as good a husband as mine has been to me. Our children love what their father does. They say that he is their hero and that isn't coerced. That is genuine. We all do.

In the beginning years of my faith, I would not have gone to heaven had I died. I was in sin. I was in complete bondage to it.

It took me falling away and being chastened of the Lord to find the real true message of salvation. By putting my faith in the Holy Spirit's power and His Word, I was able to stop sinning. I could go one day without sinning, two days without sinning and so forth. I had so much power to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I demonstrated my love to Jesus by my obedience. And by that power and grace, we were reconciled.

Do I mean that I never suffered? On the contrary, my faith has been tested many times over but the Holy Spirit has never let me down nor let me fall.

Anonymous gave you a passage of Scripture that totally refutes your approach to these folks. But it's like you are so blinded by your own arrogance that you can't see that this message that you are preaching is not Scriptural.

What if someone left that porn convention and died in a car accident? They are suffering FOREVER in torment with no way out. They are forever separated from God. Their blood will be on your hands because you gave them no warning. You told them that God loves them.

God despises pornography. He hates it with a pure hatred. He doesn't separate the sin from the sinner because it is the sinner's freewill choice that causes Him to do the unthinkable. In God's sight, a pornographer is no different than Hitler. They are destroying this nation from within the home. I personally know of several marriages and families that have been destroyed through pornography. These people are children of wrath and the enemy of God but God in His mercy is willing to forgive them IF they repent.

The suffering they are going through is from God. He is allowing these satanic forces to torment them to bring them to repentance. That is God's purpose in the suffering. But you are despising the chastening of the Lord in these people's lives by giving them a reason to feel sorry for themselves and baking cookies for the prodigal in the pigsty. Your approach totally lacks discernment. And it isn't a new approach. It has been preached since the hippy movement in the 60s. Only people like Keith Green were trying to lead people to see that God is holy and just and righteous.

We are not always harsh with everyone. If a person justifies their sin, we give them the fear of the Lord just as Jude 22-23 says to do. If they are contrite, we offer them compassion. When people come up to us and want to ask questions, we will spend hours upon hours talking to them hoping that they will be released from the devil who has taken them captive at his will. I not only minister to this group but atheists, muslims and homosexuals. We dialogue with people on youtube and on our blog sites.

We are deeply concerned for the souls of these people. Our message is not a popular one because it exposes sin and people don't like that message. They would much rather have Craig's message that says that God loves them in their sin. The unfortunate thing is that it is a lie.

Craig said that Jesus didn't judge. That is a lie. He said that Jesus never said anything scary. That is a lie. I have documented everything Craig said and given just a few examples of why what he is saying does not reflect the heart of God on sin and our need for a Savior. Do me a favor and actually get out a Bible and look up the passages. Then maybe we can discuss these things looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
Many blessings,
Vera

Vera said: "They would much rather have Craig's message that says that God loves them in their sin."

This is not the message Vera. The message is God loves you and wants to guide you to a different path and we believe in who you can be and so does God. A better way with less issues. No more worrying about STD's, no more feeling awful in the quiet of the night because the Spirit is at odds, etc. Donny voiced it very well above too.

I have shared scripture, without cherry picking, on this thread and the original post that highlights for me and what I am called to do.

Blessings,
Inger

I watched this and I was just surprised at the major OWNAGE dealt and Smack Down that was being laid down on these Hellfire and Brimstone screamers.
The second hater did have Craig when he hesitated a bit. ("Do you lust after these women at the porn conventions?") And getting in the man's face didn't exactly show God's love. But hey, I would have probably done worse. (Anger problems)
I have a bit of a problem trying to see how God's love is unconditional. Because there are some situations that I end up in. And when I hear my Pastors talk about somethings that are similar to what I deal with, I hear conditions. I take it in as "Well, if you wouldn't have done this, this wouldn't have happened."
I hear scriptures being quoted that I take as conditional...Mainly because I don't see how I can do it. Ex: "he will keep you in perfect peace...if your mind is stayed on him." (I guess that's Isaiah 26:3)
I don't see how that's unconditional. Or how about this piece from Psalms 81.
-- You shall have no foreign god among you; you shall not bow down to an alien god. I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it. "But my people would not listen to me; Israel would not submit to me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices. "If my people would but listen to me, if Israel would follow my ways, how quickly would I subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their foes! Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever."--

How is that not conditional?

Now, I'm a man trying to be a Christian. (I can't really call myself a Christian because I sin...porn is lust...lust is in.) I am a UDC Christian....Under Divine Construction. Delivery from lust and pornography is one major project. Learning God's love is another major project.

I hear these Hellfire and Brimstone messages all over the place. I hate to hear them and they need to be heard just as much as the love.
It is written that "If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable." (Proverbs 28:9)...Sounds like "God doesn't hear the sinner" to me.
And I'm kinda puzzled how these pornstars (Who really don't care) get automatic love and I, a struggling Christian must work so hard to find even a small bit of favor.
I'm afraid that I may be one of these people. Because I'm no saint. I struggle with pornography and rage. I'm afraid that God already gave me over to the lust of my flesh since I failed to walk through life it his way.
I hear almost nothing from people (who are used by God) but the hard part. (Well it's not so hard if you're at the level that you can do anything God asks in an instant without question.)

Oh, I don't know the bible as well as this message may come across. It's amazing what BibleGateway.com can do. I am studying though. (Well, I read a lot more scripture than ever before...Which used to be a couple times a week. I also have a Bible Promise Book. Great scriptural reference!)

I have another problem. The question "do you lust after these girls at the porn conventions?" I'm trying to see, as a single male, struggling with porn--well if I didn't take it in the way I did, God wouldn't have cursed me with a perverse mind--anyway, I don't see how I can see women dressed to entice and attract the eye (like the females at 12min15sec) and have a robotic response.
I can't see or hear certain things without getting aroused.
And I'm trying to see how I am supposed to show love to someone I can't even look at for fear of getting a "boner." (...they suck...especially in public...it's just embarrassing because you have to sit, stand or walk a certain way. They're just not good in any way, shape or form!)
Sometimes I wish I didn't have that thing...It causes me so many problems.

All in all, this was a wonderful video. If anyone can give me a helpful response, please do. If I can hook up anyone in this ministry that can probably clarify a few things. If there is anyone single who I could talk to about my struggles, questions and issues, please let me know. I gotta get help BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!! (like the Nation of Domination)
Hit me up.

My name is James Fulcher.
I struggle with the following issues:
1. Rage/Anger
2. Lack of confidence
3. Lust/Pornography
4. Depression
I don't need anymore condemnation, I've heard almost all of it.
Once again, if there is anyone who can help me out. Don't leave me hangin'. (I mean that in the least perverse way possible! LOL!)

Email:beast2007@comcast.net
Cell: (253) 720-5343.

I don't know about going to one of the events that you guys have set up, because I go to a church where congregants just don't go to these type of events. They just rebuke a problem and bind it so it can not manifest. But I need to talk to someone who is open about it. I live in OK and read that there is an event at a Norman church in October. But I'm afraid to go for fear of judgment. I'm under a mask everyday. Especially when I plan to minister with the beats I make. (http://www.myspace.com/beastnation)
This is a good ministry. Yall are so energetic. I hope your services are as powerful as your videos.
Because walls are being broken down!!! What?! I SAID BREAK THE WALLS DOWN!!!!!!!

Hey there, Vera. I don't know if you remember me, but I used to post at Ray Comfort's blog (raycomfortfood.blogspot.com) all the time under this same name (Rob Penn).

You might better remember me as the subject of this blog post.
http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/06/false-witness.html


Let's just clarify some things on both sides:

FIRSTLY, let's recognize that there is more that goes on in Verandoug's ministry than what we see on the videos of them on this website. I saw one of their youtube videos (actually, the video from last year when Craig and Doug first met to my knowledge), where a man actually walked away from the porn convention, which is the goal of both parties involved, amen?

SECONDLY, let's recognize that XXXChurch has never once said that it's ok to sin, and their ministry is bent toward helping people out of sin and out of an industry that runs on ruining people through a particularly effective and addictive kind of sin. They have said that God loves people who are sinners ("But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8, Emphasis added), but that sin is the wrong way to go. "Our [XXXChurch's] stance is simply this: you want to live a life that is honoring to God then start pleasing him and stop pleasing yourself. Stop making excuses and get some control over your life. Yes, it is tough. Yes, we know hormones are raging. However, God is calling us to holiness."
(http://xxxchurch.com/Masturbationaddiction.html)


Maybe we should take Donny's approach here. Let's try getting together, recognizing that BOTH parties have the same underlying goal (to get people to look away from porn and to look at Christ), and check out the ways that each ministry can inform and learn from each other. Maybe even *gasp* work together at the next Exxotica Miami?

You know how the saying goes, a single stick will snap with little effort, but a bunch together are much tougher...

Props to Wil, I like what you said in response to Anonymous, because it does not sound like he/she is doing much to help those caught in bondage.

I think handing out bibles and trying to share the good news of Christ is something He has called his disciples to do. If I remember somewhere in Bible, it also said that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God. And the second is to love your neighbor... And heck, I think Craig and his team are at least trying. But they aren't perfect...psh who is?

...I know I wasn't loving when I was lusting off some women over some porn site.

Dear James,
I know exactly what you are going through. When I first became a Christian, I had no idea what it meant to be a Christian. In my own mind, I thought I loved Jesus but my lifestyle was so far from Him along with my heart. The funny thing is that like you, I knew that I wasn't where I needed to be.

When we give into sin, we become entangled by it so that it literally is bondage for us. We become a slave to it. Part of that bondage is demonic and we are taken captive of satan at his will. It sounds like you are able to keep yourself from falling but only because you are under the law and that is a bondage as well. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong with your convictions if they keep you from sin. What I want to help you with is a permanent solution and to increase your faith in God's power.

You are right about God's love being conditional. That theme is all through Scripture. There are so many "if" clauses in the Bible attached to His promises until it amazes me how many Christians tell other Christians that these promises are unconditional. So for that, you are probably on a better road than most. You are looking at God's character objectively, which is a rare bird these days. It is interesting to note too that you are aware that you are not where you need to be. I appreciate your honesty.

As a young Christian, I went through all the motions as a Christian but wasn't freed from sin until I did one thing: I got on my knees and I asked the Holy Spirit to show me where I had offended God. BTW, before I mention this part, have you ever asked for Jesus to baptize you in His Spirit? The power to be a witness comes from that and I just want to make sure that you've asked. He won't come unless you do but I think you must have because you are hearing from Him.

Anyway, I asked the Holy Spirit to reveal to me these things and I was especially interested in places where I had held bitterness toward people in my life. See, if we don't forgive the day of the offense and we let the sun go down on our wrath, a root of bitterness springs up. Forgiveness is not an understanding of the offender's offense but letting go of our own hurt that is dragging us down even if what that person did was extremely evil. I think people stumble at that. God doesn't say to the sinner, "Oh I understand why you sinned." He lets go of the wicked offense and wills to remember it no more. Then He allows us to come to His table for a meal. That is how you know you've really forgiven someone. They can come to your house for a meal.

Once you are freed from bitterness, you never want that entanglement again. For that reason, I keep short accounts where it involves being offended.

On this day I repented, I asked God to take back any part of my life that I had surrendered to satan because of my sin and to cover my sin with the blood of Jesus and then to pull down the stronghold in my life. I felt that tormentor leave, Steve. I mean it was that tangible.

I spent a long time that day repenting and guess what? I had been a so called Christian for years. God is offended at these acts we do and a blanket "God forgive me of my sins" doesn't cut it. He wants us to repent of specific things that we've done and be cleansed. I also prayed Psalm 51, "Create a clean heart in me and renew a right Spirit within me."

I don't remember how many hours I was there but I asked the Holy Spirit that if in the future He would show me anything else I had done to offend God to please reveal it to me. He did show me some forgotten areas of bitterness later on. I repented of those too. It was at that time for the first time in my life, I knew I was reconciled to God.

Then I got into the Word of God and stayed there. When I would feel tempted to sin, I would use the Word of God like Jesus did to counter it, tell satan to take a flying leap and to get behind me, and I would take the thought captive. That is one thing about sexual thoughts is that they begin as a thought. I wouldn't let the thought get off the ground because I knew that once I entertained the thought, it was curtains. Looking back on that time, I realize that I had incredible power to take those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ and I haven't stopped since.

The whole message of the Gospel is what I have just explained above. The power in His Spirit living in us is the grace that is a free gift. It is a righteousness that is by faith because I am admitting that I can't do it even by the Law especially when I consider my thoughts. Jesus said that we can be pure in heart and I know you can. His Holy Spirit comes in and fills us to do what we can't do in our weakened state. It is His work done in us coupled with the pardon we have in His blood. The guilt is gone and the bondage is gone.

As a man, you are much different than a woman. I would not want to be these women that dress so seductively on the day of judgment and I'm not just talking the porn convention. I can't even take my sons to the beach anymore because of the women out there. God has designed you to be the way you are. Don't despise that. It is a good thing and to avoid fornication, you are supposed to take a wife. That is one of the main solutions to that problem. We as women are supposed to dress modestly as not to cause you to stumble.

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 1 Cor. 7:2

You are not far from the truth. I am praying for you today.
Many, many blessings,
Vera

Sorry for calling you Steve, James. I corrected my mistake in the beginning but didn't see it in the middle.
Vera

Rob
I had no idea you were the same person. I guess this will lead them back to my own blog. So I will just put it here to save all the trouble.
http://verandoug.blogspot.com/
That is some of our children and extended family. Some of the street preachers are working toward getting an orphanage started in Jamaica. I worked on the video. It looks better in HD on youtube.

OK, so I am in shock because you were very tough on those atheists. Does your church realize that 99.9999% of these so called atheists were once "Christians?" That is the thing about America. There is hardly anyone here that hasn't been in church or somehow involved and they are where they are because of the way they are taught. Most do not have the fear of God. Many of these young college students are easily turned away when they see the way that the Bible does not portray an all-loving benevolent God. Then the science turns them even further away when compared with the young earth creationist movement. (YEC) I love Reasons to Believe because they are for the truth even if it means admitting when they are wrong. That is the kind of Christian I want to be.

The funny thing is that reality fits God's character from start to finish. You take something like megalodon who was terrifying. He is a 50 ft. shark with teeth that make our great white shark's teeth look like kindergarten in the park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon
There was an excellent iTunes on this creature from Jurassic Fight Club.

These animals are terrifying and they portray an aspect of God that is terrifying.

It isn't one or the other, but both. God is a loving God. He does show mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments. In fact, sin is the opposite of love. That's why God hates it so much. When a society becomes so reprobate (hateful) that they no longer see the forest for the trees, they desperately need a swift kick in the pants - and we are willing to take that role when it is appropriate so that they don't either annihilate themselves or end up suffering for all of eternity. Their idea of reality is so warped that they no longer see clearly to the way of escape. The fear of the Lord is a valid way to lead them to that place. Jude 22-23 says this.

The folks coming out of the porn convention are indifferent and usually mock. They are so hardened of heart and arrogant until it is unimaginable. The worst of it is that they come out declaring that God loves them in their sin. If you are sharing the message of repentance with them, they aren't getting it. That is for sure. You can't offer compassion to an unrepentant prideful sinner especially these people that go by the name of the Lord, but are hypocrites. These are the Pharisees of our day. They are white washed sepulchers.

We did have some great conversations with people. From your perspective, you must think that nobody ever talks to us. That is not the case. We talk to many people about where they stand. We have seen people repent.

Take someone like Donny. He was already contrite. His son was the "street preacher" in his life that put a finger on his sin. He humbled himself and repented BEFORE he ever got to Craig. He just needed direction. That's wonderful but what about all the millions upon millions of others that are going to die and go to hell in their sin? Those that rationalize their sin need the fear of the Lord.

Until my dying breath, I will try to discern what is needed to lead people to repentance.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:11

Good hearing from you!!
Vera

Dear James the Bible says if you seek the Lord you shall surely find him. It is a hard place you are in, but nothing is too impossible with God. MAKE the next right DECISION, and then make the next right decision after that. In a short period of time you will be walking a strong victorious life. Making the next right decision, if you have an anger problem, would be to ask God where you let that spirit of anger into your life and then take back the ground that you surrendered to satan. It a simple short prayer where you ask God to forgive you and the person that hurt you. If it is a lust problem, do the same thing. Ask God to show you where you let it into your life. First of all throw away all the porn out of your house. You may have to get rid of the internet as well. The important thing to do is what the Spirit of God shows you to do. I will start to pray for you and if you like, we can become friends and I could help hold you accountable and you could help me, Iron sharpens Iron. doug

@ Vera

When you say "...you were very tough on those atheists," were you referring to me? I was the last person you named in that post, so I was just making sure that I was reading it right.

I was just wondering, because I don't remember you thinking that I was quite so "tough" on Atheists back at Atheist Central. I think you actually used some term like "fluffy bunnies," but in all honesty I don't remember if you were talking to me then or to some one else....

That was so long ago!


I suppose it wouldn't hurt to tell you this, Vera, but the reason that I stopped posting on Ray's blog is because I needed to take some time to examine this verse:

"Romans 14:4
Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should."

It took the word of my mentor to make me realize that, even though Ray and I disagree, there's a right and wrong way to disagree, and I was on the wrong side of it. I got my stuff together, stopped posting over at the "raytractors," and then when I continued to post at Atheist Central and kept being met with the same responses ("you're a false witness, you're a false convert, you neither know the rear or power of God," and the like), I just figured that my mere presence there was sowing the seeds of discord. And I don't want to do that. The Canon says bad things happen to those farmers.

There is a spirit of anger all over Doug I wrote this on youtube and have spent time praying for him. They are "Accuser of the brethren" the only reason I say this becous I have looked up many of there videos and links and read his comments. Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night........(infront of porn conventions as they go in to reach the lost, and on youtube day and night.) God bless Craig Gross and his ministryMatthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? Doug you are a Pharisee, Craig is eating with publicans and sinners....Thank you Craig for taking Jesus Where I can't go. Jesus hangs out with sinners, He seeks after lost sheep,I have been a lost sheep. Thanks, Craig and the whole xxxchurch team. May the God of mercy and Grace bless you and your families.

@Doug

i'm assuming that you are the "doug" from verandoug. if not, either way, this is to you:

because you make it sound like it is so easy for you to do, this whole following jesus thing: have you ever been helplessly addicted to porn? do you know how it can literally control your life? how you can lose hours days in a row? it's just not something that you can so easily unroot from your life; there is nothing "simple" about this addiction.

It is as simple as calling on the Holy Spirit to destroy the darkness that is within you. Everyone who is an overcomer has fought an addiction and won by the power of God and our obedience. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against the. doug

God is angry with the wicked everyday. God hates all worker of iniquity. That is what the Bible says. We stand against sin in our community, we do not coddle it, You guys love throwing the anger card around, let me remind you it was Craig that ripped down my sign last year and slapped my hand when I pointed out the porn on his badge this year. By the way my sign says be ye Holy for I AM Holy says the Lord. Real hateful. doug

Rob,

Wow, I just looked back at some of the posts we were writing back and forth and lo and behold, you told me about Donnie et al. It now comes back to me. You weren't being hard on the atheists but Ray for preaching a gospel that contains the Law? I can't even remember what prompted me to write to you way back when but I did try to show you how sinners would not inherit the kingdom. I brought to your attention Hebrews 6:1.

I admit that I usually skipped past your posts and everyone else's for that matter because I simply did not have enough time to give to every last post on that list. I know more about each individual atheist than the Christians there. Once I read something and I believe Scripture stands against what's there, I feel compelled to write back and so I try to limit the number of posts that I read. If they were directed toward me, I read them. I do read most of Dimensio's stuff just because he always leaves out who it is he's writing to. So I will skim a few lines to see if it is me.

This was from one of the last posts you wrote:
http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2008/06/demanding-answers.html

Reynold wrote, "Ok, if eternal hellfire is not a threat, care to explain what would be threat in your eyes?"

You wrote, "God isn't beyond threats. He told the Hebrews several times "If you don't stop doing these things, I'll use the pagan nations to take you down."

God doesn't send people to Hell. We choose whether or not we want a relationship with him, and life or death are the consequences of the choice to have that relationship or not, respectively.

The thing is, at the end God simply gives us what we want. If we want a relationship with him, we get it. If we want an existence without him, we go somewhere that he isn't; Hell."

I like everything you said here except that I do believe that God judges sin and sinners.

I never considered you a false convert but just as I do everyone from the xxxchurch - deceived in some areas. I do believe that it is possible that there are people in xxxchurch that are still sinning and that will get them a one way ticket into hell's fire if they don't repent. (not my words but God's) I think you have to look at the whole Word of God and not lean on your own understanding. The Bible is almost like science in many ways. We get a theory and then take it back to the Word to see if it is so. For example, Craig says that Jesus never was about scary and He never said anything that was scary. So we take that ideology back to Scripture and ask, "Is that true? Is it true that Jesus never said anything scary?" I can think of a few examples right off the top of my head where Jesus said things that were extremely scary. The apostles did too.

It would be wrong for me to condemn you. I think you can have these wood, hay and stubble issues and be saved by the skin of your teeth. However, you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. There are apparently levels. I don't imagine myself on the top level. But I would like to uphold the fact that God hates sin so much and He will condemn sinners into hell's fire. That is what gets us thrown in. It is our choice that breaks our fellowship with God. People need to be warned of this.

It is hard for me to keep up with everyone. But I won't forget again. :-)

Vera

cdmblueray,

If Doug appears to be angry, it is over the sins of perversion as opposed to simply being an angry person. Jesus was angry over sin as well. Doug doesn't come home and yell and scream. He is a very hard working person. He mostly does back-breaking work 6 days a week. My children love him very much.

One thing that I believe would help you folks is to go back through the book of Acts and see if your "method" falls more in line with what the apostles were doing or ours. Were they harsh on sin? Did they stand up boldly against sin? Did they judge each other over sin issues? Would they consider that judgment an "accusing of the brethren?" For example, did Peter judge Ananias and Sapphira wrongly for lying to the Holy Spirit? You know, if you think of it, you can almost say that the death of Ananias was unexpected. After all, nobody knew that he was getting ready to lie or how the Holy Spirit was going to reign down righteous anger on him. But have you ever considered Sapphira, the good submissive wife who is submitting to this perversion? You know what we would do? We would grab her as she's coming into the building and whisper, "Psst. Yo Sapphira, whatever you do, don't lie." But you know, nobody did that. They literally let her go through with her sin and watched her suffer the consequences. And what was the result? Let's see. Hmmm. Was it that the church was greatly rejoicing? Was it that the church was mad at Peter for judging and condemning? Or was it that great fear fell on all of them?

I was reading this passage this morning - Acts 17 today and I wanted to share that with you and highlight some of the words that might go unnoticed. We need to read these things with the message in mind:

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

This is where having a good lexicon makes a whole lot of difference. In the NKJV instead of saying too superstitious, it says religious. This word could be translated that way in a positive sense but in context, it was spoken negatively. The KJV got it right in this case. This is the only time this phrase is used in the Bible. Now from these folk's perspective, immediately Paul is coming against their religious beliefs and he never stops from beginning to end to say that they aren't worshipping the God that created them but basically a block of stone. He says that they IGNORANTLY worship the wrong thing meaning it is a mistake and an error.

He further warns them of God's judgment and he tells them of their need to repent. The message is the exact same message that we are preaching. Only our job is hundreds of times more difficult because we are actually preaching to people that think they are saved in their sin.

Now to you, that might seem to be no big deal, but to them it was a big deal. And some people mocked him. They didn't receive the message. That is a normal expected response to the message.

I think too that you need to be careful of some of the ways that the enemy operates. He will send people to you, even when we are in a group street preaching, and they will say, "I like what you are saying, but not what that other guy is saying." It happens all the time. It is a device to get people to divide because we so stupidly think that somehow we have a better grasp of God than the other guy. I can receive that people are lead to Christ through compassion. But xxxchurch cannot receive that others are led by the fear of God. They want to be loved of everyone and have the place of honor (sound familiar) and frankly, I don't see how you can be greater than your Master who was hated by everyone.

Vera

This is getting to be so ridiculous. None of us can say that we can be sinless by our own actions. We are all saved SINNERS. Never does it say in the Bible that in Christ we ourselves will no longer Sin. Each day we need to be mindful of what we do and even for the things we don't realize that we do and ask God to forgive us. We all sin on a daily basis, known Sin and Unknown Sin. We need to all stay away from saying that we can go even a second of being sinless. Why else did Christ die for us.

On a second point, look at the last days of Christ. When he was betrayed, beaten, spat on, falsely accused, nailed to the cross and hung on the cross, he did not offer one harsh statement to those who were doing these things to him. He forgave a Murderer right there and then, who would go to Heaven. Right at the end with Godly Love, Grace and Mercy, Jesus said this:

Luke 23:34 (King James Version)
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Jesus could have lashed out on all of them, telling them they were going to burn in hell for their sin, for what they were doing to him etc. Jesus' actions were much more powerful then any words he would have said.

We are to follow Jesus in all we do and he did not and I REPEAT, did not Condemn people with such venomous, angry, sinful, hateful talk as some Christians do to those who are lost.

We also forget that God has said that stabbing with a knife is far less then the damage that the Tongue can do to one another. Please read James 3 which deals with the dangers of the tongue being unbridled. It clearly calls us to be peaceful with our words more so then our actions.

I am sorry that I can't see why it is necessary to shout out in anger to the lost who were made in God's image. If you feel that passionate about sin, why not go to wall street and protest the greed and lust for power that some of the corporations and executives have shown time and time again, raping poor innocent people of their hard earned money. Why not protest the many other sins that we all fall victim to on a day to day basis. Sin is sin, our one white lie is equal to another sin out there. God does not have a chart that ranks the sin in some order.

I will leave you with this one thing. Look at how the Pharisees acted toward the lost and then look at how Jesus' acted. Truthfully and prayerfully compare yourselves. Jesus hung out with the lost, no matter what they have done, and gave them the truth with Love, Mercy and Grace. The Pharisees judged, hated were angry at the lost, separated themselves with them. Jesus only showed righteous anger towards the Pharisees over and over again. Begging the question, if Jesus were physically at the Porn shows, what would he do, where would he be and how would he approach the lost.

Jesus would definitely do what he did in the Bible which is to show compassion, grace, mercy and love to these people at the same time speaking the truth of his word.

I honestly pray for peace between these two dividing sides and that God show up in a big and supernatural way. That the Holy Spirit would make it clear to all that we need to show Grace, Mercy and Love to the lost because the only reason we are save is Jesus Christ and what he did. So I take all of my cues from what Jesus did and is still doing today.

God bless you all! I do praise God for making us all different and not into mindless robots, but that makes it that more important to really understand what our role in this is all about.

Remember John 3:16 (The Message)
ohn 3:16 (The Message)

16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

So let's all do a better job introducing Christ and let God handle the conviction part.

One thing I need to say about the video that I watched. Yes, Craig is human and lost it but again Just like James C stated, the Tongue is an ugly thing. The Tongue can do more damage then any physical act can do. The other thing about the Sinless protestor that I found funny is the Verbal Threat he made to an Officer of the Law. Is that something that he should ask God for forgiveness? If you don't know what I am talking about, listen hard to when the protestor goes up to the Police Officer and when he doesn't get the response that he would like, tells the officer that he know alot of higher up police officials that all he would have to do, is pass the Officer's name along to them. The Tongue is an evil thing and needs to be tamed!

Anyway, Craig has said that he is human and makes mistakes from time to time but it is funny that we are not hearing that from the other side. Take ownership of the verbal assault you were doing. Next time have a discussion without the bull horn. I feel like a group of people soon turn into a Mob because their is safety among numbers, I think the same could be said with having a Bull Horn and Intimidating Poster.

All I am saying here is we all need to watch our actions but more importantly our words. Our tongues are for Praising God and telling everyone the amazing gift Christ has given us. Not to shout angry and condemning speech.

@ 4:08-4:12 the protester says, "These people are not loved by God... they are not." This is really, really heartbreaking.. super. So I guess John 3:16 does not apply anymore... huh? And wait.. I heard one of the protesters speaking against Craig's sexual fantasies with his wife??? Wait.. hold on a minute.. what's wrong with that?? THey're married!!! Ergh.... makes me so angry. This is pitiful... and totally heart breaking.

James,
You are wrong about God's expectations for us. Matthew 7:21 says this:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So we know that Jesus has a stipulation for entry into heaven.
1. Knowing Him
2. Not being a worker of iniquity

The two seem to be intertwined and you see that in other passages.

Then 1 Cor. 6:9-11 states clearly, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified (PURIFIED), but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Then what about Hebrews 10:26-31, Galatians 5, and Romans 6, which says that we are dead to sin? How can we live any longer in it? Paul claims to be set free from sin.

Romans 8:1-10, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, BUT after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is EMNITY AGAINST God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Jesus asked God to forgive His crucifiers not because He didn't come to condemn but to keep God from annihilating them on the spot. They truly had no idea what they were doing and as the rest of John 3 says, they were condemned already. He came to save them through the cross. Stephen said the same thing but not before he blasted the group to the moon with his words.

We would say that we must use discernment. If we say that we should always be harsh, this would be in error. If we say that we should always use a kind gentle approach, this would be in error as well. There is a time for each and we use both just as Jude 22-23 says letting the Holy Spirit lead.

BTW, chuck The Message. It is no wonder that you folks think that we are so wrong when you read such a watered down version of the Bible.

Look at this same verse you mentioned but now in KJV:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are WROUGHT IN GOD."

Just one more thing. You are trusting in your own ability to change. You can't. I know this is hard and you are weak in faith right now, but the freedom from sin comes by faith in God's Spirit and believing in His power.

Think about it this way. We live in this immense universe that our God created. We are sitting on this microdot of a planet in the vastness of space that HE IS HOLDING TOGETHER and we think that God is so impotent that He can't deliver us from sin. He can. I know because I was wicked and evil and He did just that it my life.

Vera

Nic said "@ 4:08-4:12 the protester says, "These people are not loved by God... they are not." This is really, really heartbreaking.. super. So I guess John 3:16 does not apply anymore... huh?"

The dilemma of this situation is tragic. The pornographers and the so called Christians that use their money to buy these things would falsely believe that God loves them in their sin. But what happens if they die tonight, Nic? Our loving God is going to cast them into hell's fire. Do you realize that hell's fire is forever? God isn't going to say, "Oh honey, I understand why you started being a whore and no problem that you ruined so many lives and famlies. It was because of your mean cruel dad and now you couldn't help it." That is not how the judgment of God works. The problem with this ideology is that it assumes that the whore couldn't help but be a whore or that the homosexual was born that way. This is a fallacious assumption and not one place in Scripture. Every man is born with a conscience and innocent of evil. Many Gentiles who do not know the Law walk in it by nature and their conscience bears witness. These folks will be used to judge. Romans 2:14.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_uwWPE6lQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBhqrtMqrv8

Nic said, " And wait.. I heard one of the protesters speaking against Craig's sexual fantasies with his wife??? Wait.. hold on a minute.. what's wrong with that?? They're married!!! Ergh.... makes me so angry. This is pitiful... and totally heart breaking."

He asked Craig if Craig was taking the sexual things he was seeing in these porn conventions and bringing them to the marriage bed. Craig didn't deny it. He just went ballistic.

We are supposed to have no part of the world but reprove them. You guys aren't in there reproving them. You are helping the cause. I can guarantee you that Jesus would never be in a porn convention putting on makeup for the whores. No way. The only reason He hung out with sinners was for one thing - lead them to repentance. He declared that His friends were the ones who obeyed Him. He separated Himself from sinners. It was the Pharisees that said He was their friend, but Jesus never declared that.

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Hebrews 7:26, "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, SEPARATE FROM SINNERS, and made higher than the heavens;"

Pornography is hatred.

Vera

"Anyway, Craig has said that he is human and makes mistakes from time to time but it is funny that we are not hearing that from the other side."

That would be wrong. Mistakes and willful sin are completely different things. We have disagreements. We have times when iron sharpens iron. We spill the milk. We accidentally hurt ourselves. We catch colds sometimes. We make mistakes when we preach in public and we are subject to each other. We correct each other.

"All I am saying here is we all need to watch our actions but more importantly our words. Our tongues are for Praising God and telling everyone the amazing gift Christ has given us. Not to shout angry and condemning speech."

You would not have liked either Jesus or His apostles much.

Vera

Vera, do you hear yourself at all? Do you really hear others at all as well? I have not once questioned your belief in Christ or challenged your faith at all but yet you dare judge me and question my faith and others.

Are you God? God is Judge and Jury not you. God never gave us the right to be judges because we are sinful to the core. Remember we are not to have any other Gods before the One and only God. So if you say you are sinless, even though you point it back to the Holy Spirit, it is a false teaching the same way that you Judge others and condemn them as well. Only God can and you are not God!

You have not shown me any proof that what you are doing is correct and from God. Everything I mentioned spoke on us acting in Grace, Love and Mercy, Christ like. God is the Judge and Jury.

God did not in his word tell you to go out to the lost, yell, confront, judge or anything like that. Show me Jesus doing what you are all doing from the Bible. Do you know that the writer of The Message can read the original text and translated his version from those? If you are so serious about reading from the original, only God inspired word, then throw out the King James Bible and go right to the original text.

You also like to throw out your comment that we are trusting in our own ability. Did you not read what I wrote? You are telling all of us that you are sinless now that you are a Christian. That is false and dangerous to say. There is only one who lives who can say that, his name is Jesus Christ.

You are no better then the lost but have found God's grace like so many others.

My last reply is this, which to me exposes your lose use of the Bible to justify your means -

You said this -
Jesus asked God to forgive His crucifiers not because He didn't come to condemn but to keep God from annihilating them on the spot. They truly had no idea what they were doing and as the rest of John 3 says, they were condemned already. He came to save them through the cross. Stephen said the same thing but not before he blasted the group to the moon with his words.

Clearly above you said that Jesus came to "Condemn" but then you quote from the King James which says this:

John 3:16 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

So if you twisted that truth, how much more of the truth do you think you are twisting.

The Pharisees were the outspoken, judgemental Preachers of the day. Preaching Condemnation and Judgement wherever they went. They went after Jesus because he did not yell, judge the lost but yet befriended them, showed them compassion, humility, love, grace and mercy. Jesus went to where they were. The Pharisees become High and Mighty with themselves and put themselves before all man, even higher then the Son of God. When you become a Christian and follow Christ, you are then accountable for your actions. The Lost are lost and need to start a relationship with Christ first in order for them to break free from what they used to do.

I believe in a great and powerful God who simply asks us to go to those dark places in life, befriend the lost, invite them into our lives, our homes so that God then could move into their hearts and minds for them to ultimately make the decision for him. God does not want people to be scared into loving him but to love him regardless.

It is so frustrating to clearly see the damage you are doing to these people. You say that you are doing it out of love for them but all they can get from your words is that God is hate, they are evil and God does not love them at all. If you think you could be on the other side hearing what you have to say, in the way you say it and have people all of a sudden repent and get saved, I really think that you are not understanding the total damage you are doing to the cause of Christ. Even though you question my faith and how big I think God is, God is bigger then any of us and even though you cause the damage you do, there are millions more Christians that with the Holy Spirit working through us, God can use us to spread his message of Grace, Mercy and Love causing a Revival that will have millions more to claim Christ as their saviour. I really will start to pray for all of you to see if God could really help you through this and have you do what he has called you for and stop doing what he has not called you for.

Vera, I would not like Jesus or his disciples because I quoted from Scripture concerning the Tongue?

Are you now trying to compare yourself to Jesus and the Disciples.

Stop skirting around the issue of you using your Tongues to hurt people, condemn people, ridicule people, judge people etc.

Again, it is a mute argument with you since you refuse to acknowledge that Judgement is not ours, it is God's job. He has commissioned us to be the peace makers, to love our neighbors as ourselves, to be Christ examples to the lost. Jesus never called names to anyone, except again to the Pharisees, which time and time again he called them Hypocrites. Jesus did not call a prostitute a whore or another lost person a harsh name. That is not in Jesus' nature. He simply spoke to them with respect, love, compassion and yes Mercy and Grace. The lost that Jesus' converted did not convert because they were afraid of going to hell but that they finally saw who God was and wanted to finally come home to the father. He did not shame as well.

So if you think your formula is Biblical or better then what Jesus teaches then go at it but really start to ask God, honesty and humbly if what you are doing is right in his eyes. I promise I will do the same and challenge myself to let God speak to me about this as well.

May God bless you and keep you from Spiritual Attack. May the enemy be made silent so that we both can hear from God and what he says. All I ask is that you honestly ask.

We all want the same thing, to spread the Good News that is Jesus Christ. Such a shame that we need to tell others so many other things rather then simply tell of the Great and loving act that our Saviour did to quietly, with the utmost dignity, to die for our sins so that we may spend eternity with our Heavenly father. We are saved sinners. We strive not to sin on a daily basis but because we believe, we win more then we lose with our sin.

@ Vera:

Yeah, I remember that. I remember talking about them, and how they helped (and help) me after you or doug (can't remember which) posted about a group of people who were passing out The Message in a porn convention that you were protesting, and how one of them came and dragged your sign into the street.

I don't know if you said that they were false prophets/converts or not. I seem to remember something along those lines, but I'll admit that the human brain tends to remember things that are perceived, but not actually said.


You're right about how I posted at Atheist Central. I realized after a while that I should take a different, more constructive, and less destructive approach to how I respond to Ray's blog posts, but it seemed that no matter what I said, people kept interpreting it as hostile.


I do believe that God judges people. However, I believe that God's judgment comes after we've already made our choice.

We choose to love and desire God, God judges us and gives us what we want, and everything that goes with it.
We choose to want something else, to be apart from God, and God judges us and gives us what we want. And everything that comes with it.

I understand about the post skipping thing. I did it myself quite a bit. I'm not offended in the slightest. ^_^


"But I would like to uphold the fact that God hates sin so much and He will condemn sinners into hell's fire. That is what gets us thrown in. It is our choice that breaks our fellowship with God. People need to be warned of this."

I believe this to be true, also. And I haven't seen any reason to believe that XXXChurch doesn't hold this to be true. If I'm wrong, I sure hope some one will tell me about it.

The thing is XXXChurch goes about telling people about Christ and sin a different way. Rather than condemning people, they show them that there's something better.

I wonder if you and Donny might be able to work out his idea, where He and you and your husband take turns on the megaphone. I think that would be brilliant! You can work together, feed off of each other, and every one is working toward the same goal; getting people out of the convention and into God's will.


I do believe that God hates sin. However, I have to hold the words spoken in scripture; even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us as a demonstration of God's love for us (Romans 5:8). I have to believe that when Scripture says "For God so loved the world," in John 3:16, he protected his word well enough that we can be sure that we aren't missing the "Except for certain people," clause.

A relationship with God is ABSOLUTELY conditional. Salvation, which comes from the right kind of relationship with Christ, is ABSOLUTELY conditional.

God's love is not conditional. Even while I was still a sinner, still outside of Christ, God loved me, and I know that because I know that he sent his son to die for me.

@ Vera:

"We are supposed to have no part of the world but reprove them. You guys aren't in there reproving them. You are helping the cause. I can guarantee you that Jesus would never be in a porn convention putting on makeup for the whores. No way. The only reason He hung out with sinners was for one thing - lead them to repentance. He declared that His friends were the ones who obeyed Him. He separated Himself from sinners. It was the Pharisees that said He was their friend, but Jesus never declared that."

True, Christ would be telling them that they shouldn't be there. However, he wouldn't be publicly shaming them. Jesus shamed those who claimed to be in God's will, but actually weren't. The Pharasees and law teachers, he openly and publicly put THEM to shame on several occasions. Herod, a man who played both sides of the political arena and put on a great show of being a good guy when he really wasn't, Crist told his disciples that he was a fox. The woman at the well? He told her she's doing wrong and needs to change, but they were alone at the well, so there was not shaming going on there. The prostitute who was about to be stoned? "Go and sin no more," was the worst that she got, and that was AFTER all the people had left.

Saying that Christ wasn't descent, even friendly to sinners, would be wrong. He saved their lives when they deserved to die. He gave the outcasts human contact. He sat at their dinner table. Ever sat down for dinner with that culture before? It's a big deal. They have a hospitality that puts us in the south to shame!

Would Jesus be putting makeup on the goers of the convention? I dunno, I always kinda pictured Christ as a Man's man, not the kind who was into make up. But I do believe that he would be friendly, kind, and loving while he was telling them about a better way than what they are doing. And, I believe that Christ knew how to have fun. First miracle at a party and all. I can picture him taking some time to play on the big swing shown in that video. You know, after he was done at the open bar turning their water into the good stuff. And, some how, he would still have time to tell people about God and himself. Maybe even while he was having fun.

Rob, great response! Very grace filled and honest!

God Bless!
James C

@Rob
" Jesus shamed those who claimed to be in God's will, but actually weren't."

Amen, Rob. Who do you think it is that is walking out of this place? That is why I showed you that one girl in the second clip that I did. There are thousands upon thousands of these people all across the nation who sincerely have the wrong message. Ray calls them "false converts." I don't know what to call them because they honestly truthfully believe that God loves them even when they go to pornography conventions, practice homosexuality, lift up their tops at Mardi Gras to get some cheap plastic beads, walk around naked at Fantasy Fest in front of little children, puke in the streets and all the rest that we have seen over the last five years. One thing is for sure. It is a deception for them to believe that they are saved because Jesus died for their sins so that they can keep sinning over and over.

"The Pharasees and law teachers, he openly and publicly put THEM to shame on several occasions. "

That's right and that is who these folks are. These are people who go around telling everyone that they represent God in the world but their hearts are far from Him. They don't know Jesus. Then these 2 Tim 4:3 teachers come along side them and tell them that they can sin every day and at the end of the day be forgiven. The Bible says that if you willfully sin, THERE REMAINS NO LONGER A SACRIFICE FOR SIN. (caps for emphasis) Get it? That means Jesus is no longer covering you for sin.

"Saying that Christ wasn't descent, even friendly to sinners, would be wrong. He saved their lives when they deserved to die."

True. But He still declared that their deeds were evil and they hated Him for it. John 7:7.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Does the world hate xxxchurch?

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

Do you love the world or us?

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

Do you consider those who do not love the Lord Jesus Christ as demonstrated by their obedience - Anathema? Anathema is a curse.

"Would Jesus be putting makeup on the goers of the convention? I dunno, "

Well I do know and He wouldn't. He might swing on a swing but not a swing specifically meant for whoredoms. He just flat out wouldn't give an appearance of evil. Not happening.

That first miracle is probably misunderstood. I don't want to get off on a tangent here but Jesus seems to have been between a rock and a hard place because His family wanted Him to show Himself to everyone and perhaps all the wonderful things He could do. That point would be the cross. He expresses that same comment again in John 7, "My hour has not yet come." Mary had a different idea, but it wasn't God's idea. He had to make it crystal clear that she wasn't the leader of His ministry. But honored her to keep the commandments because she was His mom.

Vera

James,

You said that you couldn't stop sinning. I am set free from sin. That freedom comes by faith and not of myself. There is a big difference in being set free than being sinless. Sinless implies that the potential to sin isn't there or that somehow in my own power and righteousness, I can achieve purity. I believe the potential is there but the desire is gone and I have plenty of power to have a pure heart in Christ. It is a dynamic He is doing in me by imparting to me His divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

1 John 3:7 says, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

The Pharisees were not the only people that Jesus spoke harshly to. He gave woes to several people groups. He did judge and He says that this is why they hated Him. John 7:7. He declared their deeds were evil.

Here is just one. "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Matthew 12:41

"The Pharisees were the outspoken, judgemental Preachers of the day."

Apparently not -
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, JUDGMENT, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

They weren't judging the woman caught in adultery in terms of trying to purge sin from their midst or correct a problem. They were trying to trip Jesus up. But they couldn't judge righteously because they were, no doubt, sinning themselves.

Look at this same passage in The Message
You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment—the absolute basics!—you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. Do you have any idea how silly you look, writing a life story that's wrong from start to finish, nitpicking over commas and semicolons?

This is a totally and completely different communication with no mention of the fact that they weren't judging. The word is "krisis," which is a word that doesn't mean "commitment." Please toss that Message it does not reflect the message.

Vera

Actually, Rob, I thought your posts were getting better and better. It is funny but I experienced the exact same thing when I first started going after these hardened of heart. At first I thought that I could be all loving and gentle and kind. But after a while, I began to realize through the Holy Spirit just how hardened their hearts really are. I mean, I could sit there all day and tell these atheists how science and the Bible are in perfect harmony, but until they repent, it's like I'm talking to the wall. So we have to address that point with them and let them know where that decision is leading. They claim that they don't like that message and that it keeps them from coming to the Lord, but I don't believe it. I have spent nearly two years on Ray's board and another before that talking to these guys and no matter how much evidence you show them, they refuse. I personally believe it is because they are given over by God to homosexuality. It is so sad. I pray for them.

While we were out at the convention this year, there was a man that we'd never met who preached. The Catholics from last year came out. The guy with the guitar in my photos is one of the Catholics. They too sat out there and loved on the people. Frank handed out a lot of Living Waters' tracts. We handed out Bibles and tracts. Frank kept telling them that he loved them but pleading with them to repent. They mocked and jeered at him and cussed just like they do us. One thing though about us is that those folks will not walk away with this idea that they can continue in this and still be in the will of God and for that, I am grateful for what Doug is doing.

Many blessings,
Vera

@Vera, what can I say but I really feel for you and those people that may come across Doug and you.

You attack everything, the fact that you consider the King James as the only true translation is just short sighted.

The Message and other translations have the same meaning and content as all translations. There is not one true translation except for the original.

Stop picking and choosing your verses to suit your means. There are alot of passages in the Bible and you have not given a string of them to make your point that what you are doing is correct. You always have to check one verse against another etc. Not stop at the ones that you like.

You said that Jesus lashed out to many groups but you failed to back that up in Scripture. Please show me where Jesus publicly ridicules, shames and pours on hatred to the Lost. I am waiting and I guess will still be waiting.

Do you really know who King James was? Do you remember the Christian Crusades were they would kill on the spot those who did not repent and accept Christ? Is that what you would really like to happen now. Give the lost a one chance encounter with you and if they don't listen to what you yell at them, send them on a one way ticket to hell!!

So I will leave this conversation once again, challenging you to ask God, honestly and humbly can a man be sinless? Meaning that they could go on their days after accepting Christ and actually become sinless. Also, what you are doing is justified and biblical?

You never did answer my question about your husband threatening a officer of the law. If that was a sin, he broke his streak. Judging someone is also a sin and you have done that to me and many others without regret.

God I give this into your hands in prayer.

Vera,

You keep saying things similar to, "The word ____ in the King James doesn't appear in ____ translation". What you are forgetting is that the King James version is THE WORST possible translation for Bible study. If a word appears in the King James, and not in a better translation, that is because the King James version got it WRONG, so to make such arguments is folly. The KJV was translated from manuscripts that had been copied and recopied for over 1000 years and have more than 1000 errors, although none so bad they would affect fundamental doctrine.

A few good translations for Bible study include the NRSV, the TNIV and even the NIV. Behind those is the NKJV. As I said, the KJV is dead last.

Translations vary along many lines, but a good reason for this is that some translators want to focus on literal translation and some want to focus on contextual translation. There are positive and negative benefits to both of these approaches.

The negative about literal translation is this: some words just don't translate to an English equivalent. I've given you the following examples before, but will do so again for all those who read... If I were to say, "Vera is out in left field" or "Doug is pulling the wool over Vera's eyes" you and I, and most native speakers, would know that I meant you're a little bit crazy (from the first sentence) and that Doug is lying to you (in the second). Non-native speakers might not have a clue what was meant. They might go out into a field on the left looking for you, and might think Doug bought you a nice pair of wool sleep masks, which he is helping fit you with. The same sorts of problems arise even from the reading of novels written in British English or novels written in English hundreds of years ago - some of us who have spoken the language our entire life scratch our heads and say, "Huh?"

Translating for context is where a team of people try to figure out what the original author meant, and what the original recipient would have understood him/her to have said, and to then apply it to modern times. The Message, as a paraphrase, fits this description, but so do other translations. For life application, contextual translations are much more effective.

As for your thoughts on being sinless: I can see how spending a lot of time with Jesus will remove the desire to sin more and more all the time. I've seen that in my own life. But not a single one of us can claim to be sinless. I'm sure you hit the brake when you see a cop, 'cause you probably realize it's highly likely you're breaking the law of the land and speeding above what is legally allowed. I'm sure you sometimes gorge yourself at all-you-can-eat restaurants, thereby committing the sin of gluttony. I've seen your husband bear false witness against a girl's pastor, whom he didn't know. Surely it's a boasting matter to brag that you're "sinless". The list of potential sins is endless, and if it were possible to prove I'd bet my right big toe that you commit some sin or another on a regular basis.

Fortunately for you, a vile sinner like the rest of us, you have choosen to have God charge your sins to Jesus' account when His sin-cash-register is finished ringing you up. Thank God for His amazing grace! Whew!

A little off topic question for ya:
Vera, how did people possibly live in communion with God before the Bible was mass published for all to possess? Even those thousands or millions who followed during the years between the crucifixion and the printing press, how did they do it? How did King David get along without a full possession of scripture? Oh man, oh man, oh boy, oh geez! I think some of us make an Idol of the Bible. It is NOT God. It is a tool we use to get to know Him better. The point is to let it speak to you, not to try to literally translate things you obviously don't fully comprehend correctly.

Hey guys,
I realize that I am writing a lot, but you apparently aren't reading what I've written. James C said that the Pharisees never judged. I used the KJV to point out that they did judge. The word translated "judge" was krisis, which was a definite word meant to judge. The Message says nothing about the Pharisees and their lack of judging.

I do disagree concerning the KJV. I find it to be a much better translation along with the NKJV when comparing these texts to the original words that were used. The NIV makes so many wrong translations and leaves out some words. I have already shown you one in John 3:16. The Message is out in left field.

However, one thing is for sure. That one point is the reason you believe the way you do and see us as off base and the reason we believe the way we do. You can't walk away from the translations we read and not see that God wants us to take hold of His power to be set free from sin or speak out against it.

2 Timothy 3 says this, "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness BUT DENYING ITS POWER. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Could that be xxxchurch? Always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? You deny then that God's power is all sufficient to free us from sin?

So how do you sin every day? Lust is adultery. No adulterer will inherit the kingdom.

I don't speed or break the law on purpose. I don't brake for cops because I don't have to. That is a no big deal thing though. My conscience is clear. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man. Acts 24:16 I like this one better too in the KJV "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men."

The works of the flesh are these, "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why do you guys keep accusing me of being angry. All I have done here is teach.

Vera

Vera wrote:

"I do disagree concerning the KJV. I find it to be a much better translation along with the NKJV when comparing these texts to the original words that were used."

To what "original words that were used" are you referring, Vera? The "original words" from the poor manuscripts used for the King James Version, or the "original words" from the literally thousands of earlier-dated manuscripts that have been found since?

@ Vera Vera Vera,

What are you talking about?

You said - "James C said that the Pharisees never judged." What? I said that they were Judgemental, they wrongly Judged Jesus and his works as well as others. They Judged him as an evil doer because he spent time with the unclean and lost. Which is what I am saying you are doing.

Then you state -
" I used the KJV to point out that they did judge. The word translated "judge" was krisis, which was a definite word meant to judge. The Message says nothing about the Pharisees and their lack of judging."

So I was telling you that the Pharisees were Judgemental and you then told me here that I was saying the opposite and that made me wrong. Then you said that the Pharisees did not judge and that was the problem with them but then you started the second part of the 1st paragraph to say "I used the KJV to point out that they did judge."

Please please do us all a favor and try to explain how you twisted what I was saying and directly pointed you as to be the one in error.

You said the Pharisees did not Judge not me.

Do you see how you have a hard time understanding people when you really are confused in who said what, primarily what you said.

Sorry but God is my judge and I will go to his word as well as in prayer to get direction. I don't need your false judgement on my life. You don't know me at all.

All the best!

@ Donny

I am glad to hear that I am not crazy and alone here. I can't believe that we have to justify our positions to someone who clearly refuses to take the time to understand what we are saying.

We all can clearly understand the message Vera and Doug want to share with the world but I really don't think they care to ask God for some understanding of what we are trying to tell them.

God bless you brother!

@Vera

One last comment. John 3:17 clearly states in all translations, especially in the King James:

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You said this very thing and did not respond to my previous question about you contradicting yourself and Scripture:

"Jesus asked God to forgive His crucifiers not because He didn't come to condemn but to keep God from annihilating them on the spot. They truly had no idea what they were doing and as the rest of John 3 says, they were condemned already. He came to save them through the cross. Stephen said the same thing but not before he blasted the group to the moon with his words."

So how can you say that Jesus came to Condemn when it clearly does not say that in John 3:17.

If you want to stick to scripture, you can't have it both ways.

Look through alot of what you said and you will see giant holes if you truly ask God to reveal them to you. We all see them and you don't have to hear us but hear from God.

Don't you think the enemy could be affecting you and your message. That you are beyond being human.

I choose not to sin but it is a daily fight each and every second I breath.

None of the Disciples ever said that statement that they lived a sinless life.

Remember, God used the lowliest of Men and Women to do his will. Jesus' line had many characters that were lost, sinful men and women that God used. King David is another one that did some horrific things but he eventually repented of those sins, but he was in God's favor when he decided to do evil.

The disciples were not scholars, most of them were fisherman, are you telling me that they would have had enough education to understand the King James version without any help.

I guess God's word can only be understood by the smartest people on earth.

I know that my Mom, who has a junior school education, who taught herself to speak english should use the King James which is very hard for the average person to understand. That she cannot use another translation that only makes it more understandable without changing any of the text or meaning.

It says in God's word that it is infallable, the truth, that no man can alter his word.

I do think God can be in control of his word being translated into many various forms without it being destroyed or misunderstood.

Man is what takes his word and twists it all about for their own personal gain.

Stop twisting his word. Stop putting our God in a small box that you and a few others seem to be the only Christians that get it. That know exactly what they need to do with the lost.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I have a personal relationship with him and walk hand in hand with him each day. I am not perfect but try as hard as I can with God's power and grace, with the Holy Spirit leading me to be that much better each and every day.

Our God is amazing because not one person has the same journey as the next in coming to a personal relationship with Christ but God loves us all equally.

One last thing. Don't ever say they crucified Jesus, you need to start to say I crucified Jesus.

We all did, not one is exempt.

Oops, I think my paragraph on the Pharisees lacked cohesion. I meant to say that James C said that the Pharisees were judges. Jesus criticized them for not judging.

I know what you are trying to say, James. You believe that the way to get people to come to Jesus is through love and kindness and compassion.

The Bible says, "And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."

Everyone on this list justifies sin in one breath and at the same time says that they don't agree with it in the next. This all boils down to the watered down version of the Bible you're reading that has led you to say that Jesus never judged anyone but the Pharisees or said anything harsh to anyone but the Pharisees.

That is a problem and one which we will never agree on. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners. Purify your hearts ye double minded. With that in mind, it doesn't surprise me that you don't like our message. You have raised up a leader for yourself to itch your ears.

It is good to have these conversations. I hope to share our position with you clearly. Let's stick to the Bible as our source of truth and not our opinion.

Vera

"Jesus asked God to forgive His crucifiers not because He didn't come to condemn but to keep God from annihilating them on the spot. They truly had no idea what they were doing and as the rest of John 3 says, they were condemned already. He came to save them through the cross. Stephen said the same thing but not before he blasted the group to the moon with his words.

So how can you say that Jesus came to Condemn when it clearly does not say that in John 3:17"

I'm not saying that. I meant that His comment on the cross was not for the purpose of not condemning them. They are condemned already. It was a huge act of love to forgive them especially knowing how much He suffered at their wicked evil hands.

You have no idea how angry God is over sin.

Thankfully, many of them repented, when Peter pointed out this fact to them. Let's look at that passage in the KJV and the NKJV. It says in the KJV, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" Instead of wicked, in the NKJV it says "lawless." In 2 Thess 2:8, this is the same word used to describe the anti-christ. It is someone totally devoid of the law. The word "lawless" to me, sounds like breaking the speed limit where wicked sounds like someone extremely bad. You know how they reacted? They were pricked in their hearts. Does xxxchurch ever prick anyone in their hearts? When people ask what they must do, does the xxxchurch ever say, "Repent and be baptized?"

"but he was in God's favor when he decided to do evil."

What are you saying here?

"I do think God can be in control of his word being translated into many various forms without it being destroyed or misunderstood. "

The publishers of the NIV are not exactly the most godly people on the planet.

"I know that my Mom, who has a junior school education, who taught herself to speak english should use the King James which is very hard for the average person to understand."

It isn't that hard to understand. Minus the ye's and thou's, it uses fairly simply language. I think the reading level for the Bible is 5th grade.

"Man is what takes his word and twists it all about for their own personal gain."

Amen. Which of us is doing that?

"Stop twisting his word. Stop putting our God in a small box that you and a few others seem to be the only Christians that get it. That know exactly what they need to do with the lost."

Each person is an individual and should be treated as an individual with discernment being led of the Spirit. If there is one thing one should walk away from the book of Acts with it is that no two situations were the same where it came to leading someone to the Lord. Sometimes, they used teaching. Other times they were harsh. All of this was done publicly through preaching. Sometimes, they used a miracle especially to someone who was lowly. I think Jude 23 though definitely applies to the porn industry. It is a huge money machine and that is all they care about. They are destroying this country. So many kids have been hurt because of a father that became addicted to porn and a mother that left. Pornographers need the Law and the fear of God because they might be getting away with this here, but they are going to burn forever if they don't repent. Jesus spoke on hell's fire and warned of it more than almost any other topic and He encouraged people to choose heaven.

Each of you should read the Bible for yourself. Get out a sheet of paper and mark down every time Jesus says something that seems a little tough and note who He is talking to. Be alert to anything that seems a little tough. I don't think it does a bit of good for me to point it out because you're not listening. You need to see it for yourself. I know God is a loving God. He is loving to those of us who love Him and keep His commandments. To the merciful, He shows Himself merciful. I love God will all my heart and He loves me. I love Him because He first loved me.

Vera

"Do you see how you have a hard time understanding people when you really are confused in who said what, primarily what you said."

I can't really see my text clearly to proofread until it is up on this board. I try to proof it, but it doesn't always work. I have made a number of typos and errors for that reason. I did catch that one once it was gone and by then I couldn't correct it.

Vera

"Vera, how did people possibly live in communion with God before the Bible was mass published for all to possess"

The early church leaders had access to these texts. They were using them in their own writings.

It is really the power of the Holy Spirit that leads us, which is the most important aspect of being a believer. However, it is obvious from history that men and women have been deceived because they rely on their own understanding and not what the Bible clearly teaches.

To me, science is a beautiful picture of what our approach to the Bible should be. We hypothesize concerning a natural phenomenon. Then we take that hypothesis and use the record of nature to see if it isn't true.

The Bible is to our understanding of God what nature is to science. It is a Book that is living and active and we are privileged to live in a time when we have incredible ways of studying God's Word. Nevertheless, the most important aspect is having the Holy Spirit. You can have a million Bibles and still wind up in hell's fire because without the Spirit of God, you are none of His. You must be born again.

Vera

Vera,

Sorry to disagree with you on alot of your points. You still skirt the issues that we bring up to you time and time again. You are great at diverting things you cannot answer.

Again, I did not say the Pharisees were Judges, they were Judgemental. There is a big difference when one is appointed a Judge and when one is being Judgemental.

The Pharisees thought they were better then everyone else. That they were smarter then everyone else and took upon themselves to be Judge and jury of our Christ. They stepped over the bounds of what was God's territory and what was theirs.

I will say it again, God is the only true Judge and has not appointed us with that task. We are to spread the Gospel to those who are Lost with Grace and Mercy, not Judgement!

You are putting the horse before the cart. We are to tell about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and what he did. If you simply emphasized what he did and talk about your testimony, that is on the right track to what God is asking us to do.

Your Testimony is what is missing because in all of your talk, you keep saying they Crucified Christ, you no longer sin, etc. We all Crucified Christ. We always have that tagline before our names with the disclaimer that our penalty has been paid by Christ.

How can a sinner relate to you when you do not even talk in relation to them or when you were a sinner. The good things God has done in your life.

You have stated that you clearly were a sinner but it gets lost with all of the Judgmental Words that you use. Jesus did not die on the cross so we can tell the story about Sin and Hell but his Story which again, I believe in an Almighty God that uses that Story to win people back to him.

Again, you have made yet another mistake in saying something that I did not say. That makes me question if you have mistook the Gospel to be something that you have created to be something it is not.

Sorry to point that out but it just doesn't sit right that you still can't get what I am saying straight.

All the best in your endeavors and I really hope that someday, God would lay it on your heart to do things his way as his Son so proudly displayed before all man.

If you can go back to all of the comments made back to you, we have never questioned wether or not, you will be in heaven, that you are truly saved etc. but you have made many comments to alot of us in saying that we are probably not saved. We don't have a real and honest relationship with Christ. That the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us at all.

God does know all those things and I dare not Judge you or anyone else because It is not my job nor could I really do it. It is a God only ability and right. I don't have the right to judge my fellow Christian on their salvation nor do I have the right to judge the world. I am simply to obey and do my father's will and spread the Gospel to all and live my Christian Life for the world to see.

Amen

God Bless

To Vera (and all other readers):

I'd really highly recommend buying an audio version of the Bible similar to this one: http://tr.im/n7BT I have that one as well as the full Bible called "The Bible Experience" (see it here: http://tr.im/n7PS ).

The Bible wasn't separated into chapter and verse until the 1200s so that it was easier for reference. Unfortunately, I think a lot of meaning is lost by focusing on particular verses. A person could focus on a few lines in almost any book and totally bastardize the author's meaning. Listening to one of the audiobooks I linked to is really cool. No chapters or verses are mentioned, and different character voices are used, along with background music. The words aren't changed (the first link is to a NKJV reading).

Tonight I have been listening to some of the chapters you referenced... and all the writing surrounding them... and I keep thinking, "Vera needs to hear this!" I think that's all it would take for you to realize how off base you are on some of the "meanings".

That first one is only $30 bucks. Get it today!

@ Donny:

"That first one is only $30 bucks. Get it today!"

Considered sales as a career option?

@ Vera

Amen, Rob. Who do you think it is that is walking out of this place?

I think they aren't Pharisees. Joel Osteen, he's what I'd call a pharisee, but I digress.

There are people who are in there who really truly think they are Christians. There are people in there who ARE Christians, who have been so fooled that they don't know any better. To them, you say "this is wrong," and the shame comes when you show them scripture verses that say they are wrong.

The greater majority, however, are the prostitute being dragged into the street for a stoning, or the woman who is so ostracized by her community that she had to wait until mid-day, when it was hottest, to carry heavy containers of water from the well to her home, because that's when no one else was doing it.

How do you discern the difference between the two from across the street? How do you know that people wearing a cross necklace aren't just wearing some pretty piece of Jewelry?

How do you know that you're shaming the Pharisees?


That is why I showed you that one girl in the second clip that I did.

You mean the woman who justified her actions by saying "God gave me this body?" To which your husband replied (in all correctness, to be fair, but in a most unkind manner) "Yeah, but only to show to your husband, not to just any one who wants to see it!"

Did you really think her argument was meant to prove her rightness with God, or do you think that she doesn't care about God and just wanted to get under your skin for offending her?


"One thing is for sure. It is a deception for them to believe that they are saved because Jesus died for their sins so that they can keep sinning over and over."

I agree to a point. I believe that, when we as Christians sin or transgress (there IS a difference), that God is faithful to forgive if we ask for it and TRULY repent. I believe that it is no different with people who are struggling with an addiction, literally fighting for their lives against the Pr0n monster (sorry for making light of a truly horrific foe, but I just couldn't help myself.)

I do see, however, in Romans that Paul says "whom you choose to serve becomes your master," and that real Christians who have a real relationship with Christ can chose to make sin their master once again. I don't know where that line is, but I DO know that I don't want to be on the wrong side of it.


"That's right and that is who these folks are. These are people who go around telling everyone that they represent God in the world but their hearts are far from Him. They don't know Jesus."

To say that, you'd have to ignore their fruits. Which is how we're supposed to tell the good from the fake, right?

Countless people out of the porn industry because of their help. Many times more helped out of an addiction and gain control over themselves (including myself) because of the software and support they provide that equips them against the enemy.


"Then these 2 Tim 4:3 teachers come along side them and tell them that they can sin every day and at the end of the day be forgiven."

I have never seen such a message here, and believe me, I was around here long before that first year you met, when Craig dragged your sign into the street.


"True. But He still declared that their deeds were evil and they hated Him for it. John 7:7."

And XXXChurch does just that. I WATCHED, with my own two eyes, one of their debates with Ron Jeremy where they said that Porn is destructive, and vile, and they are NOT hiding Christ in their message at all.


"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Does the world hate xxxchurch?"

Remember how Jesus defined the world; it was the sinners AND the pharisees.

I have heard of many a pharisee that hates XXX Church. And, I hear-tell of many a porn producer and "actor/actress," who dislike losing business.

However, Hatred isn't the standard that Christ lays out for us, is it? He didn't say "you will know them by the way they make every one angry." He said "You will know them by their fruit."


"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

Do you love the world or us?"

I love people. It's true; I'm far too trusting, I give my love and respect to just about any one, and some times people burn me for it. However, I mostly love the same thing God loves; who they are DESIGNED to be. I don't love the guy who used to be my fraternity brother, who said "The first moment I met you, I thought 'this would be a cool guy to hang out with if I could just some how shatter his faith,'" because he's witty and smart and talented and a descent musician. I love him because I have caught glimpses of what God designed him to be, and I wanted that SO BAD for God and for the kingdom of Heaven.

I don't love the wolves, I love the lost sheep.


"'If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.'

Do you consider those who do not love the Lord Jesus Christ as demonstrated by their obedience - Anathema? Anathema is a curse."

If it answers your question any, the ex-fraternity brother (I've been officially expelled since then) mentioned above was a BRUTAL lesson in "kicking the dust off of my feet." I didn't even go to his wedding.


"'Would Jesus be putting makeup on the goers of the convention? I dunno, '

Well I do know and He wouldn't. He might swing on a swing but not a swing specifically meant for whoredoms. He just flat out wouldn't give an appearance of evil. Not happening.

That first miracle is probably misunderstood. I don't want to get off on a tangent here but Jesus seems to have been between a rock and a hard place because His family wanted Him to show Himself to everyone and perhaps all the wonderful things He could do. That point would be the cross. He expresses that same comment again in John 7, "My hour has not yet come." Mary had a different idea, but it wasn't God's idea. He had to make it crystal clear that she wasn't the leader of His ministry. But honored her to keep the commandments because she was His mom.

Vera"

So, basically, what you're saying there is that the son of God, (who was/is/will forever be God) didn't WANT to turn water into wine, but did it any way because of a law that he himself wrote, that he wouldn't even be breaking if he had chosen not to obey his mother's wishes (Honor does not equal obedience, and if the parent asks the child to do a dishonorable thing, then disobeying would bring honor to the mother and father in fact)?
And in the midst of that, the son of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God (who is at once that very same omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God) couldn't think of ANYTHING else to do, like bringing an animal or person back to life, or multiplying some food that was running low on supply, healing a blind/handicapped person in the crowd, making a tree to randomly die on the spot, or some other even that he himself (as God) could have arranged for to show his power?

I find that a bit difficult to believe. My Christ is bigger than that.

"Actually, Rob, I thought your posts were getting better and better."

My message about Christ and God never changed. Just how I talk about Ray.
Good to know that some one noticed, though.


"While we were out at the convention this year, there was a man that we'd never met who preached. The Catholics from last year came out. The guy with the guitar in my photos is one of the Catholics. They too sat out there and loved on the people. Frank handed out a lot of Living Waters' tracts. We handed out Bibles and tracts. Frank kept telling them that he loved them but pleading with them to repent. They mocked and jeered at him and cussed just like they do us. One thing though about us is that those folks will not walk away with this idea that they can continue in this and still be in the will of God and for that, I am grateful for what Doug is doing.

Many blessings,
Vera"

And what part of XXX Church's message, or the message of those Catholic believers, sounds like "this is an ok life style?"

Is it the "Hey, here's some truth?" Is it the "Look, God loves you, and he doesn't want for you what these people want for you?" Is it the "This will take you to bad things?"

@ Vera:

"However, one thing is for sure. That one point is the reason you believe the way you do and see us as off base and the reason we believe the way we do. You can't walk away from the translations we read and not see that God wants us to take hold of His power to be set free from sin or speak out against it."

Can't say that about me. I was raised ABA, under the "Jesus himself spoke the King's English" doctrine of my Grandparents. Yes, that's an exaggeration, but not by TOO much. Pappa does admit that the word kept in Heaven is probably not KJV, and probably not English at all.


"Could that be xxxchurch? Always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? You deny then that God's power is all sufficient to free us from sin?"

Not really. They DO acknowledge, however, that the Body of Christ (the community of believers) is PART OF God's arsenal by which he frees people from their addictions.


"Why do you guys keep accusing me of being angry. All I have done here is teach.

Vera"

They're probably still referring to the angry sounding yelling over the megaphone in the video.
Just so you know, I for one haven't read any anger or angry tones into your posts here.

@ Vera:

"Everyone on this list justifies sin in one breath and at the same time says that they don't agree with it in the next."

What list ar you talking about?
Do you mean this blog? Who is justifying sin? Who has said "Yep, porn is OK in my book?"

I don't see that any where.


"This all boils down to the watered down version of the Bible you're reading that has led you to say that Jesus never judged anyone but the Pharisees or said anything harsh to anyone but the Pharisees."

There's a difference between hard truths and harsh words.
The hard truth of it is, people who follow porn instead of Christ won't know the joys of Heaven in this life AND the "next".
The harsh words are all about hatred, and name calling.

Christ called the fake holy people names, and publicly shamed them. Who else did he call names, and publicly shame?

When did Jesus ever say "I hate you," or "God hates you?"


"That is a problem and one which we will never agree on. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners. Purify your hearts ye double minded. With that in mind, it doesn't surprise me that you don't like our message. You have raised up a leader for yourself to itch your ears.

It is good to have these conversations. I hope to share our position with you clearly. Let's stick to the Bible as our source of truth and not our opinion.

Vera"

Vera, I've seen you give better posts then that.

I know that you're capable of giving something of substance to this discussion. Saying "we're never going to agree, because you're listening to yourself and not the KJV, and you've picked a different leader:"

1) ignores the latest point made about the KJV versus other translations

B) is the polite equivalent to saying "you're a stoopy poo-poo."

Please don't read that as an attack on you; it's just my gut reaction to a claim that ignores other points and is a blatant and needless attack on one's person rather than the points they make, and I want to communicate to you what I'm feeling here.

@ Vera:

"Does xxxchurch ever prick anyone in their hearts? When people ask what they must do, does the xxxchurch ever say, "Repent and be baptized?"

Why don't you ask their web site?
"Our [XXXChurch's] stance is simply this: you want to live a life that is honoring to God then start pleasing him and stop pleasing yourself. Stop making excuses and get some control over your life. Yes, it is tough. Yes, we know hormones are raging. However, God is calling us to holiness."
(http://xxxchurch.com/Masturbationaddiction.html)

Why don't you ask the producers and "actors/actresses" that they've helped out of the industry?

Why don't you ask the countless people who they have aided with their software and support?


Why don't you ask me?
Yes, they DID prick my heart. Or, more accurately, Christ pricked my heart and they were the needle.


"It isn't that hard to understand. Minus the ye's and thou's, it uses fairly simply language. I think the reading level for the Bible is 5th grade."

Depends on how much they've been looking at KJV. Most linguists distinguish between KJ English and modern English as separate classifications.


"Each of you should read the Bible for yourself. Get out a sheet of paper and mark down every time Jesus says something that seems a little tough and note who He is talking to. Be alert to anything that seems a little tough. I don't think it does a bit of good for me to point it out because you're not listening."

I am totally listening. Er... Reading...


" I know God is a loving God. He is loving to those of us who love Him and keep His commandments. To the merciful, He shows Himself merciful. I love God will all my heart and He loves me. I love Him because He first loved me."

Wait... so, God is loving to those who love him and keep his commandments. Except for you, because in that case he loved you first.

Did God love you first, or did he start loving you when you started loving him and keeping his commandments?

I have to believe that it is true that Christ/God loved us, WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS (really need to get some Italics on this commenting thing,) and sent Jesus to die as a show of his love for the whole world.

In a world with so much need for love and need for forgiveness it is difficult to swin a straight line through and ocean of anger and lust.Those that are religious has such a zealous passion for God but yet so far from the love of Christ.They are dry brooks,springs and wells.I believe the seluion as a christian is to really decide how exellent and passionately creative we want to serve the king of kings.Eventually that is what will set us apart from those who serve Christ with small mindedness.Above all,never to forget,God,Jesus loves them to.

Let's talk about judging for a minute since this is one of the main themes this morning. Does xxxchurch judge? Sure they do. You haven't stopped judging us since the day we met. You have judged my husband as an angry man not knowing him from Adam. You have judged our message. You have judged our reading of the Word as not being in line with Scripture. You have judged the version of the Bible we are reading. You have judged our methods. You have judged whether or not a sinning Christian will get into heaven. You have judged it as impossible to stop sinning. You have judged me a liar for saying that God's power freed me from sin. You have judged my mistakes as a true sign that I am in error.

Now before you get your feathers in a ruffle, I don't believe that you should stop judging. Judging is a part of our conscience. There are many things in this life that must be done through judging. For example, we can't vote without judging. It is a part of the image of God that we possess.

Talk about cherry picking in the Bible. No where is this more evident than in our understanding of judging. We read one line of Matthew 7 and fail to read on to the end of the thought and we exclude every other mention of judging.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Now, I want to say that our ministry did not judge first. Yours did. We were content to stay on our side of the street and warn people of the choice they are making. I have shown you at least 3 times in Jude 22-23 that our method is valid, but you continue to lean on your own understanding. You say you have glowing testimonies and yet there isn't one person here that lives by the power of God. You confess that God is not able to keep you from falling. You yourselves confess that you have no faith in the power of God. I am not the one saying that. I know for a fact that the power of God for everyone is a prayer away.

Anyway, the gist of Matthew 7 is hypocrisy. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 2

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge *practice the same things.* BUT WE KNOW THAT THE JUDGMENT OF GOD IS ACCORDING TO TRUTH AGAINST THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, AND DOING THE SAME, that (WARNING) you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are (WARNING) treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on EVERY soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."

So Paul says that he judges according to the judgment of God against such things. What things? He just said it in the prior passage:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, GOD GAVE THEM OVER to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, STRIFE, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, UNDISCERNING, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.

This is hypocrisy when, for example, I am home watching porn and then going out and judging pornographers. But if I get the log out of my own eye, then I am free to get the splinter out of my brother's eye. I have to judge and discern that my brother, in fact, has a speck in his eye before I can try to get it out. Of course, I don't consider that passage talking about these sins unto death but more the things between us that we find to be irritating. You are a judge for example and then judge us for judging. That is the log in your own eye.

Romans 2 is a continuation of a thought from Romans 1 where he's just mentioned these gross heinous sins unto death.

Did the apostles ever judge?

Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. Then Saul, who also is called Paul, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT looked intently at him and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.” And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. THEN the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord."

Please note that Barjesus is not a Pharisee or religious leader. He is a sorcerer. He is the "common folk." He is blinded by God by the power of the Holy Spirit in Paul and this is the sign and wonder that leads the proconsul to be saved.

" It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already JUDGED (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, DELIVER SUCH A ONE TO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:15-16

Here Jesus is commanding us to judge righteously:

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24

In order to fulfill these passages of Scripture, one must judge:

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person. 1 Cor. 5:11-13

Now here's the dilemma that we encounter. Even the whores at these events hold up signs indicating that God loves them even if they continue to practice pornography ruining families and lives with their adulteries. This is no different than someone in WW2 Germany taking communion and then heading off to the concentration camp to kill whole families. They sincerely believe they are saved; but they're not. It is deception to think that if they died tonight, God would let them in. You aren't even supposed to eat with someone who calls themselves a Christian and is one of these events. Do you? Do you judge righteously? Are you judged of no man because you have the mind of Christ?

Jesus is not coming back to coddle people in their sin. Let's investigate why you would burn up my people. Let's investigate why you ruined so many families with your perversions. Let's investigate why you murdered little innocent babies in the womb? Let's investigate why you were out at night drunk and puking in the street. He is simply going to destroy it all when the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. And let me warn you of something, the blood of these people that you have encountered where you have told them that God loves them in their sin and have fallaciously concluded that they can continue in sin or those Christians who see your booth and conclude that God loves porn because it helps them with their sex lives are going to turn to you and accuse you to your face for not warning them of hell's fire. Their blood will be on your head.

At the very end of Revelations, an angel comes on the scene from heaven to give the last gospel message. Now I would sincerely appreciate it if you would take note of the message. Does the angel tell all these wicked evil sinners that God loves them and wants them to go to heaven? Does he say that God cares about why they started sinning? Whose message does this mirror better for a people so lost in gross error? Yours or ours? Is this Gospel a warning of judgment or compassion?

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Vera

Assuming that xxx doesn't stand for pornography church, what is the meaning of xxx in your name?

Thanks so much!
Vera

@ Vera

"I have shown you at least 3 times in Jude 22-23 that our method is valid, but you continue to lean on your own understanding."

Yes, your method is valid. I'll admit that again, as I did in the posts I put up before you got to this thread.

However, I won't say that your method is valid to every one at the show, that there are many at the show who need the mercy spoken of in verse 22. In fact, I would suggest that MOST of the people at the convention are such people, judging from the comparative fruits. I have stated before that I KNOW that your ministry is a Godly one, because I watched one guy walk away from the convention last year to sit with you. However, I think that treating EVERY ONE at the convention like the kind who need fear to pluck them from the flames is an over generalization that causes problems for the people practicing the mercy half of the Jude passage you quoted.


"You say you have glowing testimonies and yet there isn't one person here that lives by the power of God."

And you came to know this by watching us live, right?
Or, maybe, you came to know this by cherry picking the one or two tings that is hard for people here, for various reasons, and have decided that this is the only part of their lives that matter. Or worse, you've been told of other parts of their lives, and ignored it. I dunno which.


"You confess that God is not able to keep you from falling. You yourselves confess that you have no faith in the power of God. I am not the one saying that. I know for a fact that the power of God for everyone is a prayer away."

Who has said that?
Has any one here said that God has no power over us? No power to help us?

Or, have people here merely acknowledged that God gave us choice, and some choices are just harder to make, so God gives us the Community, the Body of Christ, to help us make it?


"You are a judge for example and then judge us for judging. That is the log in your own eye."

THAT, I believe, is a sermon that has merit here.
That is all.


"Please note that Barjesus is not a Pharisee or religious leader. He is a sorcerer. He is the "common folk." He is blinded by God by the power of the Holy Spirit in Paul and this is the sign and wonder that leads the proconsul to be saved."

Most definitely NOT a "common folk." The Greek calls him a "pseudoprophetes."

1. one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2. a false prophet

He was A FAKER, *just like* the Pharisees.


"DELIVER SUCH A ONE TO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Talking about that specific person in that specific group of Christians. Yes, that is a possibility and necessity some times, but only IN THE CHURCH, not for people who are outside of church, and not even in every single case.


"Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

Now here's the dilemma that we encounter. Even the whores at these events hold up signs indicating that God loves them even if they continue to practice pornography ruining families and lives with their adulteries."

And to them, speak differently. The place you start with them is scripture, saying "You can't be faithful to God and be doing this."

Do it the way we are commanded to deal with people in the church. First in private, then with a couple of witnesses so that every one knows just what happened and what was said, then go to the next level. No where are we told to START with openly shaming the Christians who are severely misled.


"And let me warn you of something, the blood of these people that you have encountered where you have told them that God loves them in their sin and have fallaciously concluded that they can continue in sin or those Christians who see your booth and conclude that God loves porn because it helps them with their sex lives are going to turn to you and accuse you to your face for not warning them of hell's fire. Their blood will be on your head."

No ma'am. NO WHERE does XXX Church say "It's ok to keep doing this." They have only ever said "God loves you, and that's *why* you should take a better way."


"Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Vera"

That's... not the gospel. Sorry, but the Gospel is the good news about life with Christ, and WHERE THAT PUTS YOU when the hour of Judgment has come. That right there, from the mouth of the angel, is a proclamation that the hour of Judgment is here, and no where in his message is "the good news" found.

It's just news.

Paul TELLS US the good news in Romans chapter one, starting at verse 16. It's that God has power to save every one who believes, the power to make them right in his eyes (righteous.)

Jesus tells us the why and how in John 3:16.

How? Well, he gave his only begotten son. This is expounded upon a great deal in Hebrews, just how Jesus' sacrifice works.

Why? Why, because *God loved the whole world*

When Jesus said "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is *near*," that word "near" was talking about *proximity,* not saying that Heaven is CLOSE, and you better get right before it gets here. Every where Jesus is, there the Kingdom is. That's part of the Gospel, too, that we can have part of heaven IN THIS life.

Put it all together, and you get something like this:

God loves you. So much so, that he gave up EVERYTHING to put you on the right side of judgment, when that day comes. Because it's not God's will that ANY should perish. Hell's a terrible place, and he doesn't want that for you. He wants better for you. Not only that, but once you have Jesus in your life, you can experience some part of the Kingdom NOW, TODAY. Life won't be easier, in fact it will probably be more difficult. But it will be *better,* the way it's *supposed* to be.

Nowhere in that Angel's message is the Power of God to make us righteous on the judgment day. Only that judgment has come. Therefore, by the Definition of "the gospel" given to us in Romans, we can't call that "the last gospel."

Pastor Craig,
I LOVE your ministry to those hurting in the porn industry. And Jesus LOVES it too!!! I would have hit those protesters with a whip.......like Jesus!! You are the man that God is using to pull people out of darkness in porn and Las Vegas. Keep up the GOD work.

Much love,
Shawn

"However, I won't say that your method is valid to every one at the show, that there are many at the show who need the mercy spoken of in verse 22. In fact, I would suggest that MOST of the people at the convention are such people, judging from the comparative fruits."

It is difficult for us to catch everyone who repents on camera. For one thing, people like things to be kept private. Often, when people are sharing their hearts with us, they will ask us not to put them up on youtube. So we respect that and don't. We do have a few examples though where we were able to catch the person on camera repenting. I had a great conversation with that one woman in the second video. I may still put that one up on youtube. She hugged me before she left.

"He was A FAKER, *just like* the Pharisees."

I don't know. He was called a sorcerer. No Pharisee would be caught dead being called a sorcerer. Not to mention that there is no indication that he is a Levite. So, I am going to say that he was just your ordinary Jew.

I personally think that the Pharisees are grossly misunderstood. They had all the appearance of goodness and righteousness but were not really cleansed inside. Simeon though was in the temple and he was waiting for the Messiah. Nicodemus was willing to seek God on these important issues. How would we even know that private conversation were it not related by Nicodemus. What Jesus said was that our righteousness needed to EXCEED that of the Scribes and Pharisees.

One of the other major offenses of the Pharisees was twisting the Scriptures for personal gain. They also put heavy burdens on people but were unwilling to carry them.

Do you think that Jesus harsh words to them were loving?

"Paul TELLS US the good news in Romans chapter one,"

This is that verse:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

There is that mention of wrath once again. I think we are missing the mark when we don't recognize what it is we are being saved from, which is why this angel's message is the EVERLASTING GOSPEL.

"Do it the way we are commanded to deal with people in the church. First in private, then with a couple of witnesses so that every one knows just what happened and what was said, then go to the next level. No where are we told to START with openly shaming the Christians who are severely misled."

This is where this passage in 1 John 5 comes into play:

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Judging from the reaction of the apostles where it concerned real bona fide sinners that were sinning unto death, these admonitions to take one and then two etc were not used. There was no gentle approach. A sinning Christian is a hypocrite. I have listed several examples before this. There is no way that a Christian should be at a porn convention, at Mardi Gras, naked at Fantasy Fest and so forth unless they are there for the purpose of witnessing.

That is what got to us so many years ago when we started going to these places to call people to repentance. It wasn't the heathen at these events. It was the whole church and not just one single denomination. It seems like every single group of so called Christians is represented at these wicked evil events. So that has been our hearts for a long time. We are trying to reeducate the church of the path they're on.

"God loves you. So much so, that he gave up EVERYTHING to put you on the right side of judgment,"

Agreed

"when that day comes. Because it's not God's will that ANY should perish. "

True

"Hell's a terrible place, and he doesn't want that for you. He wants better for you. Not only that, but once you have Jesus in your life, you can experience some part of the Kingdom NOW, TODAY. Life won't be easier, in fact it will probably be more difficult. But it will be *better,* the way it's *supposed* to be."

This is a great message for someone whose never heard. It is not the message for someone calling themselves a Christian and sinning with the world. It is not the message for someone who thinks that God loves them even if they keep sinning every day and at the end of the day ask for forgiveness.

We give this message when we are in restaurants or talking to people in more civil situations.

I don't necessarily like to use pat messages like, "Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything?" But that is also a good one for someone who thinks they are good enough to get in based on their own goodness. Everyone must come to the place of repentance. It is the beginning.

I gave this cashier at Costco a Gideon pocket NT. About 2 weeks later, Doug and I were in Costco and this guy was very excited to tell us that he'd been reading the Bible we gave him. He said that this one verse stuck out to him. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." We had a great two minute conversation as he rang up our groceries.

Vera

Craig, One of your followers is encouraged to beat us up thanks to your example. That is the fruit of your ministry and it is rotten fruit.

Vera

Can't you see that the devil has got us to fight each other?
A church is that is divided is ineffective and less productive in the service of God. The Devil's play book is in operation: Cause confusion, accuse fellow brethren in the lord whoa re in the fight against time to win souls, maginfy the small differences among the believers who may have different approach to reach the lost. The believers are now doing the dirty work for satan.
Why are we fighting against our fellow believers who seek to preach and testify about Jesus Christ! John3:16 God loves us all equally and He desires that NONE perishes.
IT is the HOLY SPIRIT who convicts us all of sin, righteousness and judgement. God hates sin but loves the sinners.

Jesus was more angry with the religious establishment of his day calling them 'brood of vipers' 'tombstones' and etc etc Sometimes, Jesus dined with sinners at their own setting but he preached and taught to the amazement of his crtics and followers.

The format and presentation can be worked out if we all agree. I suggest that XXX church people present a statement of belief and amdate at hand to give to people and let the HOLY SPIRIT do the rest . Commit evey work tot he lord but the enemy is roams about seeking to destry the message of salvation through petty insignificant but very effective.

God bless

Can't you see that the devil has got us to fight each other?
A church is that is divided is ineffective and less productive in the service of God.

Why are we fighting against our bethren in the Lord who seek to preach and testify about Jesus Christ! John3:16 God loves us all equally and He desires that NONE perishes.
IT is the HOLY SPIRIT who convicts us all of sin, righteousness and judgement. God hates sin but loves the sinners.


The Devil's play book is in operation: Cause confusion, accuse fellow brethren in the lord who are burdened to win souls that they are heritics, maginfy the small differences among the believers who may have a different approach to reach out the lost. The believers are now doing the dirty work for Satan.

Jesus was more angry with the religious establishment of his day calling them 'brood of vipers' 'tombstones' and etc etc. Sometimes, Jesus spent time with sinners at their own setting but he preached and taught to the amazement of his crtics and followers.

The format , style and strategy of how to reach porn stars and addicts be worked out if we all agree on what I call the main absolutes of the christian fath.

I suggest that XXX church folks make avaliable a copy of the statement of their beliefs and their ministry mandate in print. Let the HOLY SPIRIT do the rest . Commit every work to the Lord. Remember that the the enemy roams about seeking to destroy the message of salvation using very deceptive cunny tricks by using us believers against our own in the same family. He specialises in using us against others in the kingdom of God by valuable time to engage in petty insignificant arguments instead of tearing apart his kingdom though seeking after the face and heart desire of the Lord.


God bless

I am amazed at some of the ridiculous statements I am seeing from people who are supposed to know the Bible. First God does love all sinners, if He didn't John 3:16 would not be in the Bible He sent Jesus because He loved the world. Are people in the porn industry sinning? Of course they are and I do not hear any one from XXX sugar coating this they are right up front and telling the truth, that porn will destroy your life, your marriage and your relationship with Christ. You would not find Jesus standing on the corner yelling at the sinner, as a matter of fact the thing that made the religous leaders so mad at at Jesus was the fact that He associated with sinners (you would know this if you read the bible) and by the way that is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, or any other translation you care to read. Was it not Jesus who told the woman caught in the very act of adultery to go and sin no more, and that He did not condemn her? Was it not Jesus who went to the house of the tax collector and forgave him? Was it not Jesus who said His entire purpose was to seek and save the lost? was it not the religous who were angry because He forgave the woman? Was it not the religous who were angry because He went to the tax collectors house? Was it not the religous who were angry because Jesus would eat with sinners? You can never get Jesus to side in with religion, He will not do it, He will always be on the side of truth and the truth is these people are sinners who need a savior and no one denies this , but they are not going to listen to hate speech. The Word states the way to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not to believe what the KJV says and there is no other translation that is correct, as a matter of fact the KJV is just a translation, no more anointed or powerful than earlier translations. People with signs and hate talk are what Jesus called "blind leaders of the blind...gagging at a nat and swallowing a camel" (good old KJV for you) I have been in ministry all of my life, pastoring this church for nearly 11 years, and I have never seen anyone saved because they were told God hates them. Romans states it is the goodness of God that leads men to repent. Should we tell the truth that the porn industry is sinful and that God does not approve? Of course because that is truth, but you cannot say that God hates those people it does not line up with the Word.

Those preachers were Heaven sent, but those porn stars (another name for prostitute) are hell bound. The XXX Church should start doing some real ministry like these preachers are doing. You should call sinners to repentance, warning them about the wrath of God and eternal hell.

@ Vera:

"It is difficult for us to catch everyone who repents on camera. For one thing, people like things to be kept private. Often, when people are sharing their hearts with us, they will ask us not to put them up on youtube. So we respect that and don't. We do have a few examples though where we were able to catch the person on camera repenting. I had a great conversation with that one woman in the second video. I may still put that one up on youtube. She hugged me before she left."

Cool. ^_^


""He was A FAKER, *just like* the Pharisees."

I don't know. He was called a sorcerer. No Pharisee would be caught dead being called a sorcerer. Not to mention that there is no indication that he is a Levite. So, I am going to say that he was just your ordinary Jew."

I didn't say that he was a Pharisee, I said that he was just like the pharisees in that he was a religious faker. A false prophet, who pretended to be holy when, in all reality, he wasn't.

Jesus had no problem with "religious" people, he had a HUGE problem with religious fakers.


"I personally think that the Pharisees are grossly misunderstood. They had all the appearance of goodness and righteousness but were not really cleansed inside. Simeon though was in the temple and he was waiting for the Messiah. Nicodemus was willing to seek God on these important issues. How would we even know that private conversation were it not related by Nicodemus. What Jesus said was that our righteousness needed to EXCEED that of the Scribes and Pharisees."

True. I agree with that. However, the scriptures (and history, as much as I am familiar with it) don't give any indication that these Pharisees, the ones who weren't fakers, were easily found. They were few and far between. So that's why I use the term "Pharisee" so generally.


"One of the other major offenses of the Pharisees was twisting the Scriptures for personal gain. They also put heavy burdens on people but were unwilling to carry them."

Again, agreed. More a symptom of their religious faking than another problem altogether, in my humble opinion.


"Do you think that Jesus harsh words to them were loving?"

Absolutely.
Love ain't mamby-pamby. Sometimes, love has to be tough.
However, love doesn't ASSUME harshness from the start, and doesn't blanket harshness with no regard to the person.


""There is that mention of wrath once again. I think we are missing the mark when we don't recognize what it is we are being saved from, which is why this angel's message is the EVERLASTING GOSPEL."

You're taking the damnation and forgetting the other half. The FIRST half, if you were to follow Paul's definition to the T.

At best, that angel's message is a half gospel. And really, that angel's message has no power to save people from judgment, because in his message *judgment has already come.* There isn't any salvation from it in his message, and that doesn't fit the definition given to us in Romans.


"This is where this passage in 1 John 5 comes into play:

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

How many of these people are sinning themselves to physical death?

Yes, sin leads to spiritual death. I believe that with all my heart. But ALL sin leads to spiritual death, and since he says in that passage "All sin is evil, but not all sin leads to death," he can't be talking about spiritual death since we have other places in the Canon that say that ALL sin leads there. He must be talking about PHYSICAL death.

Pornography doesn't lead to physical death. It leads to other physical, emotional, and spiritual problems that are incredibly evil and horrendous, but unless they went and shot up some kind of substance, were hanging around a murderous crowd, or something not pornographic in nature, they weren't dying.

We SHOULD pray for people in the conventions and shows.


"Judging from the reaction of the apostles where it concerned real bona fide sinners that were sinning unto death, these admonitions to take one and then two etc were not used. There was no gentle approach. A sinning Christian is a hypocrite. I have listed several examples before this. There is no way that a Christian should be at a porn convention, at Mardi Gras, naked at Fantasy Fest and so forth unless they are there for the purpose of witnessing."

That may be true. I'd like to see some of those reactions, though, if you could point it out to me in scripture.

even so, however, I've already shown how the people at the convention don't all fall into such a category, since not every person at the convention is a part of the church, nor is pornography a sin unto death.


"That is what got to us so many years ago when we started going to these places to call people to repentance. It wasn't the heathen at these events. It was the whole church and not just one single denomination. It seems like every single group of so called Christians is represented at these wicked evil events. So that has been our hearts for a long time. We are trying to reeducate the church of the path they're on."

Then focus on them. Focus on the ones who are Christians, and treat the ones who aren't Christians differently, the way the scripture shows us to.


"This is a great message for someone whose never heard. It is not the message for someone calling themselves a Christian and sinning with the world. It is not the message for someone who thinks that God loves them even if they keep sinning every day and at the end of the day ask for forgiveness."

I absolutely agree. However, how do you know the difference while you're blanketing every one with damnation from the other side of the street?


"We give this message when we are in restaurants or talking to people in more civil situations."

That's cool to hear. Really, it is. The only thing I've heard of your work is here and at Atheist Central.


"I don't necessarily like to use pat messages like, "Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything?" But that is also a good one for someone who thinks they are good enough to get in based on their own goodness. Everyone must come to the place of repentance. It is the beginning."

That's REALLY cool to hear. I don't necessarily think the pat WOTM stuff is wrong, but I do think that there are better ways and I think that it's definitely NOT "*the* only scriptural way of doing things."


"I gave this cashier at Costco a Gideon pocket NT. About 2 weeks later, Doug and I were in Costco and this guy was very excited to tell us that he'd been reading the Bible we gave him. He said that this one verse stuck out to him. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." We had a great two minute conversation as he rang up our groceries.

Vera"

Cool story. I love it. Really, I do. But, here's the thing, most of the people at the porn convention are more like him than like the pharisees. Most of the people at the porn convention aren't in Christ, because they have been pushed out by the Church. "If Christians are like that, then I'll stick to my porn."

I'm not saying at all that what you're doing is un-biblical, or without a place. In fact, I said the exact opposite when I first got to this thread, before you got here. Go up and check out my first posts here. What I AM saying, is that it doesn't have a place in every one's life at the show.

Scripture shows us, as we've both already read, that there are different kinds of people whom we should act differently towards. People in the church need clear, even harsh warnings that God's grace isn't an excuse to sin more. People outside of the church need to hear about God's power to save them from what they are heading towards, and WHY he's trying to save them. You and I don't know the difference unless we know something about the person's heart.

There's more than two kinds of hearts. In and Out of Christ isn't all of it. There's warrior hearts in Christ, Servant hearts in Christ, Hearts for the Orphans in Christ, broken Hearts in Christ, and many kinds of hearts outside of Christ as well.

ALL THAT leads up to this; we don't judge people by their sins, we judge them by their hearts, and their sins inform us about their hearts.


You can't know that EVERY PERSON at the convention needs this kind of treatment until you know EVERY HEART in that convention.

Pastor Steele, The Bible clearly states that God hates all worker of iniquity and He is angry with the wicked everyday. I guess we throw those verses out because they do not line up with the Jesus we created in our own imagination or we never heard anything about in church except the love message. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world. God's love is not in question here, the real issue is that sinners refuse to repent and get right with a God that is going to throw a lot of people He loved into Hell. In my opinion 3X church does sugar coat the message. How does painting faces of paid women by 3X represent Christ, and carrying their burden of guilt that God is putting on them because of their sin, helping them. 3X Church does not believe they need to repent of their sin because by their own admission they continue to live in sin. Dear Pastor Steele the Bible says that the Law is perfect to convert the soul. We do not hate, we give the law and if they humble themselves we offer them mercy in Jesus Christ. doug

Pastor Steele,

You said, " as a matter of fact the thing that made the religous leaders so mad at at Jesus was the fact that He associated with sinners (you would know this if you read the bible) and by the way that is the KJV, NKJV, NIV, or any other translation you care to read."

That's not what Jesus said was the reason they hated Him. He said, "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." John 7:7

God's love is undeserved. We are condemned and destined for hell because we choose to do things against what we know to be right. That is sin. We break the moral law of our conscience that is written on our hearts. (Romans 2:14) A loving God is going to cast these wicked evil pornographers into hell's fire just like He did Sodom and Gomorra or the Antediluvians in Noah's day. When God says that He is longSUFFERING, it is because He is suffering because of our sin. It breaks His heart. It is our obedience that puts satan under His feet and demonstrates our love for Him. Grace and the love poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit accomplishes that in our lives.

The problem with XXXchurch is they give these folks no warning and no fear of God. All these prostitutes are coming outside the building telling us, as they walk around naked, that God loves them in their sin. Proverbs 7:27 says, "Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death." The fear of the Lord is the beginning, not love. Jesus never approached a sinner with the words, "God loves you." His message was, "Repent." The reason Mary was so grateful was because Jesus cleaned her up on the inside. Craig fallaciously believes that she went right on sinning, which is nonsense. She was set free and so humbled that she would wash her Lord's feet with her tears and hair.

The Pharisees were constantly trying to find fault with Jesus because they were jealous of him. "For He (JESUS) knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy. " They didn't like the fact that Jesus was putting a finger on their sins making them look bad and getting all the attention, when they seemed so good and righteous. Even Paul proclaims that he was blameless under the Law (Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Phil 3:6) but then confesses that it did not achieve for him the righteousness that he sought. (Romans 7) Jesus pointed out the need for a heart change. And He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

The Pharisees, such as Paul or Nicodemus, would in no way be near a porn convention. The ONLY reason that Jesus came near sinners was not to be their friend but to lead them to repentance. You can be sure that He was warning them of hell's fire and calling them to repentance not chumming around them helping the whores put on makeup. It was the Pharisees that accused Jesus of being the "friend of sinners." Jesus said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Vera

I went back and listened to the Gail Riplinger videos on youtube. Instead of just taking it all in, I spent a long time going over the Scriptures that she was pointing out. One that stood out to me was 1 John 4:3. The reason is that we talk to a great many people including muslims. There is a type of muslim that we have run into lately that "used to be Christians" at one time but now have converted to islam. Do you know what their main argument is across the board? It is that it is impossible for God to come to this earth as a man. That is the bottom line for them and these so called x-Christians will debate till the day is done on irrelevant points that are easily torn down for the sole purpose of promoting this one point. Now I had thought of this long before I listened to this tape. But it really made me stand up and listen when I heard it and checked it out.

KJV says this, "And every spirit that confesseth not that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

NKJV says this, "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

NIV says this, "but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Whoa! Wait a minute. What happened to the part about Jesus coming in the flesh? That part has been removed. The muslims will say that Jesus is from God but they will never acknowledge that He came in the flesh and that is the point that the KJV and NKJV make to qualify who is "anti-christ." The NIV says that it is anyone who acknowledges that Jesus is not from God. There would be few people that fall into that category.

There were a number of other passages where she points out words that are taken away. And I think her point is will taken that if we take away the words of this book, God is going to take away our place in the Lamb's book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev. 22:19

Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

What I personally do is either read or listen to the KJV and NKJV and often, I go back to the original text. blueletterbible has Thayer's Lexicon and other helps that I have found invaluable to see how phrases are interpreted. I also use a Bible program.

The point though that I want to make here is that part of the reason that I believe that Craig says things like, "Jesus was all about love, never about judgment, and never said anything scary" is because he is reading a translation of the Bible where those things are removed. There is no way that you could walk away from the KJV or NKJV with that understanding.

Vera

I guess we need to type slower or something, Vera, 'cause you don't seem to be getting it: the King James Version is translated from very poor source documents. The worst available. With over 1,000 errors.

I typed that really slow in the hopes you got it this time.

Simply because you LIKE the way the King James words things, vs other translations, or the text of the King James FITS YOUR VIEW of how things SHOULD BE does NOT do away with the facts. If you need the King James Version to prove your legalist, angry points of argument... maybe you need to change your outlook!

I will buy these books for you. All you have to do is read them:

"How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth" by Gordon Fee - Check it out on Amazon: http://tr.im/npWi

"Elements of Biblical Exegesis - A Basic Guide for Students and Ministers" by Michael J. Gorman - Check it out on Amazon: http://tr.im/npX6

Within their pages (or just about any other book on modern Exegetical exhortion) there is plenty of source information backing up what I'm telling you, plus a whole lot of information that ANY person who loves the Bible will find useful.

I really think you have a habit of trying to justify your views of hatred, rather than being willing to see if the Bible really says what you think it says. That's not a good way to read the Bible, dear Vera.

You're an intelligent woman. Let me buy you these books. Send me an email and let me know where to send them. They'll change your life.

PastorPhilipSteele on June 3 and Daniel on May 27 are right on.

There was another post about division. That is a problem with many churches that even believe the same THING! Jesus even said that a kingdom divided with not prevail.

Although I understand how Craig acted in the middle of the fracas that does not mean it was the best course of action. None the less, the street "preachers" are not preaching the Gospel (which oddly enough translated is "good news"). Craig, God is using you to change those that are living in a world of sin. Expect to be attacked from all sides, especially Christians! (You already know this, it has happened since the start of XXX Church.) One of my dear friends, who is a man of God, was removed from his position (BY CHRISTIANS) because he was following God’s plan. It also happened to me.

The KJV was not from the mouth of God directly. God still used fallible men to do his work. It was completed in 1611 at Westminster Abbey in London. This was one of the greatest works at that time because it put the Bible in accessible reach to anyone that could read!

Guess what? The Message is doing that today!

The Message is a paraphrase. It is an interpretation of one man (an very smart man at that) to give people that need to understand the Bible a way to understand. Although I never preach from it, it is great supplement when people are not catching the drift of the other translations.

Craig and other XXX Church leaders, keep on keeping on. Many are praying for you and your ministry and many are being changed by the Light of God.

~JDM

I am putting two youtubes for you to see. These demonstrate what I've been trying to tell you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_eRIAzDRUw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PbLuYwAm8E

They're a small sample of our one on one conversations. As I said, some people ask us not to film etc.

Vera

From the NIV
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

From the NIV
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be DECEIVED: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

From the Message
Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom. A number of you know from experience what I'm talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you've been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit."

This explains perfectly why we are not on the same page. The passage actually reads, "Don't you realize that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom? Who are "unjust people?" The other versions say "the unrighteous." Then the passage goes on the explain who these "unrighteous" are in case you didn't know. The Message leaves you thinking that you are still getting in but you just won't experience those things here.

Let me say this slowly, I ....will .....never.... join you..., my friend. The fruit of your ministry is rotten. You have displayed rotten fruit and then continue to bend and twist the Word to make your ideology work.

Donny, have you ever gone through deliverance?

I am not really interested in these books because like I said, I compared the verses for myself. I have heard these arguments in the past but the thing that knocked it over the centerfield fence for me that day was 1 John 4:3. It is so obvious that words were taken away that will falsely lead people to combine islam and Christianity. It has already happened. We have dialogued extensively with such people.

The fruit so far of xxxchurch:
1. Attacking a brother in Christ two years in a row because he is rightly warning people of hell's fire just like Jesus did.
2. Telling the folks who are destroying our society from within that God loves them in their sin, when we all know that a loving God will judge them to hell's fire. Jacob I loved; Esau I hated. God is angry with the wicked every day.
3. The way that Craig comes out and physically attacks us, calls us "protestors from hell, encourages his followers to beat us up in the future, lies by cutting out footage in his film and then turns around and plays the martyr role. Poor Craig, -sniff, sob- he is so abused by people when he doesn't deserve it. Everyone picks on Craig. boo hoo. How did Pastor Steele put it? "Craig, God is using you to change those that are living in a world of sin. Expect to be attacked from all sides, especially Christians!" Unbelievable. This is yet another example of the deceptive fruit that I have noted from this ministry.
4. The way he says that Jesus never said anything about judgment and that He did not say anything scary. That is a lie.
5. Helping whores with their whoredoms.
6. Swinging on a whore's swing and then saying that Jesus would do the same? That alone was enough for me.
7. And the most important fruit is the fruit of the ones who have heard the message from xxxchurch from within and then erroneously conclude that God is in the porn industry and understands their lust for sex and is meeting that need through porn. They love seeing a church inside to soothe their aching conscience. We know because we have talked to them on the way out. We see them holding up their signs defending what they are doing, "Jesus hung out with whores."
8. The way that there is a lot of compromise in your words. "We aren't doing porn anymore but we still sin." The Bible clearly teaches against this and John point blank tells us that someone who is still sinning is of the devil.
9. Craig can love and embrace those who are destroying families, children and wrecking lives all over this country but hates us for telling these people the truth and then telling the world that what we tell these people is that God hates them over and over.

I believe what Gail Riplinger is saying is true and that they picked the purest writings to canonize the Bible even if they weren't the most numerous copies. As I compared the scripts, the NKJV kept very close to the KJV with very little variation. I am not in agreement with Gail on that one issue against the NKJV because the symbol is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned and like I said, when I compared the texts, the NKJV kept very close to the text with very little variation. Because of modern day language, I think it is important that the Bible communicate to us in a way we can understand and for that reason, I too like the NKJV.

NIV and The Message are the same ole thing that satan has been doing since day #1 and that is twisting what God has said to make it more palatable to sin. Did God really say that?

One thing I noted in Gail's message that was completely unrelated to what I'm getting ready to say. She said that the Greek characters for 666 in Revelations are actually each a representation of the letter X in Greek, Hebrew and Latin meaning they stand for XXX. Each X was a symbol for Christ. I shall put that on the back burner of my heart and see where your church ends up. One thing I know is that you are not heading for the target. You think you do God a service by hitting us and trying to hurt us. Sound familiar? You really can't. We aren't getting any money for what we're doing. The best you can do is to kill our bodies but you can't kill our soul. All you have to be is a little off at the beginning and in the end, you will not be in the ballpark.

Repent or perish.
Vera

I went on line to seek out information on help for porn addiction. As I perused through your sight you lead me inside porn conventions where I got an eye full off the very thing I was attempting to avoid in many forms, thruought. I could leave with that truth and make my point, however, some thing else must be said about your ministry.
I see you have a genuine desire to see those in the industries saved and set free. And I know that your just as passionate about those whom fall from the sins they promote, be it just another lost and unrepentant soul or Gods own chosen "sheep".I don't discredit your intentions in all your efforts as I believe I have as much of a call to battle the spread of this evil as any.The protester whom was sent to you was not from hell. He also has a passion to minister to sinners in the name of JESUS (and that means all of us) Boldness in detouring depraved souls from entering the temple of the devil is indeed just as effective as trying to sell a message of "self denial" in a lust drenched den where hearts are gorged with self desire. And it ..is ..safer. ( Lord lead us not unto temptation).I'm not going to play the scripture tossing game to prove any of my points because we both know what the scriptures say.Laws of the spirit were placed because of the weak and not just for the weak ( the law is spiritual). I've been in ministries for 35 years and made many a wrong turn along the way but Jesus love has never failed me in sending those to me which rebuked,admonished or showed me what I didn't see. And by the way I have confronted many a religious spirit in my faith in JESUS and do recognize the difference.
It does not prove diplomacy or sacrifice entering into the devils temple (his body of worshipers) to evangelize or "reach them". It's rather quite reckless because they can be approached anywhere else and likely to be less fortified from the spell of their fleshly feasts witch comes in through the eyes first (porthole to the soul).
."Combining the seedy with the sacred" Jesus "sat " with the sinners is not an open road to mingle with the unrepentant sinners when they are engaged in their immoral ceremonies and practices. JESUS did not hang out in brothels. The holy spirit leads us to opportunities when we wait on Him.
I agree that today's church ( the body of Christ )is not what it should be in regards to outreach. Oddly enough it is partly because it is peppered with the lusts of the world that has been brought in thru the eyes and ears. .You will never change the faces of immorality on this earth.Prophecy say's it's going to get worse. We can distract lost souls from the lustful images and activities of the ungodly by showing them the joy of the Lord that can only be seen and experienced in the opposite direction.Our fellowship should be a safe haven from the sin all around us.You are inviting any one who finds your sight into an opportunity to be exposed to the visual temptations that create the problem in the first place and allowing into the temple ( body of Christ ) the seedy images and words of the most predominate sin thruought scripture. (witch by the way,God did destroy thousands of them because of their sin! Your site is so full of the word porn( porn,porn,porn,porn) and nice clips of fleshy lustful images and acts. your feeding the soul through the eyes.And the rabbit (fertility symbol) pole dancing....makes one think of ...? And we have to look at a cartoon image of a penis? It's all about sex,sex,sex with "JESUS loves you" as a cherry on top! ?The statement "Jesus love's porn stars" seems to suggest that He loves them in what they do.Like JESUS loves all those who sin.But the truth is best said JESUS loves all people and He will judge all their deeds.
Porn needs to be covered. Not exposed. Berried not lifted up and magnified.
The greatest Glory of JESUS love is found in repentance. That's when you experience His love. Thanks for the sip of vodka!

Hey Anonymous and Vera,

if God does not love then what would be the point of atonement? Do we not as Christians have to become Christ like and have the fruits of the Spirit living inside of us?

What about John 3:16?

From a Wesleyan Arminian standpoint here is what Joseph Dongell had to say...
"That God should love the world takes the matter far beyond mere friendliness or openness or even pity toward the world. The power and passion of God's love comes across, not through a supposed special meaning of the Greek word involved, but through the length to which God was willing to go for the sake of the world: ...he gave his one and Only Son (John 3:16). We may catch a glimpse of the depth of such sacrifice when considering the love intimacy Jesus constantly shared with His Father. An unreflective person might imagine that the Father avoided His own suffereing by His Son. But every earthly father can sense the double agony of a father who by his own decision would put a loving and trusting son at risk. It is the magnitude of such sacrifice that brings the believer to ask, as Paul did in Romans, "He who did also, along with him, graciously have us all things?" (Rom. 8:32).

That God should love the world, only heightens the mystery of this love" (72-73).

God loves the people who they are. yes I do agree God dislikes the sin, but at the same time he wants to see everybody come to know him. Therefore the atonement came into play.

Though I do believe God does not need us, but he wants to have a relationship with his creation. If he did not love us then we would have been made from the get go to just love him. We have a choice.

Once we accept Christ as our savior, we are justified, regenerated, and adopted. Sin is no longer our master but we are under grace not the law (Romans 6:14).

If Love was not the motivation then what is really the difference between Christianity, Hinduism, Islam? To be honest we can not fathom God's love for each and every one of us.

Yes I do believe the God I serve is more than just love, He is Holy, almighty, all knowing and the list can go on and on.

The people of this world will not be able to know Christ if we do not reflect Christ in our lives. Therefore I do believe as Christians we have to preach the message of Love and hope to those who are hurting. This is the message of the good news that Christ talked about when he opened up the scroll.


As for XXXChurch. What XXXChurch does is almost like what the salvation army does witht he poor. Now if you dislike the salvation army, then I have lost total amount of respect for you. However I will still lift both of you up in prayer.

Overall, Leave XXXChurch alone. If XXXChurch was going to be flop and not of God's will then it would have fizzled out long time ago. Wanna know what, XXXChurch is not fizzling out but it is growing. People are coming back to God and not following their old sinful nature.

I say this because my roommate at the Bible college I attended struggled with pornography. I kept him accountable through the X3 watch and encouraged him and in and day out. Yes he still at times struggle with the urges but he is doing better.

Also did your parents ever teach you, if you do not have anything nice to say, then do not say it at all? Do not give me the horse poop that XXXChurch started it first, or you are doing the good christian thing by rebuking your fellow brother, because the attitude of your rebuking is far from showing love.

Saved Panther grace is not a license to sin. doug

Dougie poo, Did I ever say that? Did I not use Romans 6:14? Did I not write the verse out, so you do not have to look it up for yourself?

Please answer the question, if you do come back on. If you say no that I did not use Romans 6:14, then please bro get your eyes checked. I know that might sound rude but in all reality you might need to have them checked.

Yes I do believe as Christians our willful sin is broken and taking the Wesleyan Stand point, I do believe it is possible to be entirely sanctified.

Same time we need to bring the gospel to dark. We need to let our love light that comes from God shine. However at the same time we can not jump in without God giving us the nod that it is of His will for in that certain area.

However I do believe not everybody is made for the specific mission God given XXXChurch (I respect those who might disagree with me). God has given us all different talents and gifts that we need to use for His use.

I haven't seen it come up in my iTunes?.. did I miss something?

Friends,

Let us not hate one another. For Christ told us to love one another, and that is what Craig is doing. He is not preaching a "fluffy" message. He is preaching from the mind of Christ. For Jesus was known to be around the sinners, tax collectors, and other un-believers. And when asked why he was hanging out with "sinners" Christ replied that He had come to heal the sick not the healthy.
Now, Craig I pray that you preach the full message of God in a way that they understand. Yes, Christ does love them, but remind them that they must ask forgivess to God and that their hearts must be right, and walk in the path that God has placed before them. For Paul wrote in Romans that God judges the mind, for the mind is the center of everything you do.
Let me also say that pornography isnt a higher sin than cussing, stealing a couple bucks from mom, or lying. All sins are the same. No where in Gods word does it give a list of bad sins and good sins. So before we consult with others about their wrongdoings, we must look at ourselves.
Gods message is all about love! But its like an invitation. Were all invited, but its our decision to go. We can experience Gods love or Gods wrath. God loved all of us by giving His only son to be crucified for the sake of our sins. But like I said, its our choice to either take the promise God has for us, or reject it. I hope God blesses those who support His word and Craig's ministry, because no matter what translation, the message is always there: For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, for that who believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Josh B,
you have it right about the invitation and our choice.When I first asked jesus into my heart and did confess with my lips unto salvation I felt the warmth off his presence and I broke and cried. It realy happened! And as I left the chapel and went of into the world I knew he would never leave me nor forsake me.He has not left me.
Since that time I most assuredly have broken everyone of His commandments at some point in time.That is because My new incorruptable eternal "born again" spirit is stuck in a corruptable (perishable body).This body cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
JESUS was the only man that never sined in His earthly body.
He has given us His holy spirit as a deposit on our soul. His spirit does judge me and I am convicted. I do repent and He does forgive me. I am under His grace. He has covered me with a robe of righteousness as a believer.And when He looks upon me he doesn't see the sin, this is why some say they are without sin(In God's eyes).
That's what the robe is for to cover the corruptable, that He can look upon us.
Because I am His child He will love me with blessing,warnings disipline,chastizement,corrections, rebuking,or whatever He choses. He is a jelous God and He loves me.
That being said, an open rebuke is better than a silent love.
Your also right about sin being sin, to God. However "man" does not use terms of "sin" in our courts but rather "offense" and indeed some things are more offensive than others amongst man. All earthly goverments atest to that.
But Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of tax collectors and people stealing from thier mothers purse. And I think It's safe to say that tax collectors don't advertizing for the need of more collectors to inhanse thier profits by getting people addicted to collecting with support parrades ,convention and stores to promote the desire to become a collector.
Never once wanted to be a tax collector by watching one.
If my 18 yr old child was going to a porn convention and I wanted to do something In love to prevent or distract them I would not grab a bunch of God's innocent people and a video camera and start showing realtime of what goes on behind closed doors of the sexually immoral to the rest of my family, friends and niehbors or other innocent people.

Visual exposure is how this sin is spread in the first place and all the more when God's people help, naivly.
Have ....nothing ....to do with the unfruitful deeds of the dark.
I make no excuses for Doug"s wild statements but if God's wrath or judgment were to fall within seconds, I would definatley want to be accross the street from that convention center in my service.
Love covers a multitude of sins. Bro Dave

Dave wrote:

"But Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of tax collectors and people stealing from thier mothers purse. "

The rest of your comment seems to hint that you've also bought into the "surface" reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you've read through all the comments you've seen me beg Vera and Doug to start learning more about context. You've provided me with a perfect example here. Here goes...

FYI: Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of many sins, no doubt. But the reason they were destroyed was NOT because of sexual sin. They were guilty of inhospitably treating their guests. At the time, it was almost impossible to survive in that land without shelter. Even if your enemy knocked on your door you were expected to shelter him. No shelter = no survival. The sin that brought destruction to Sodom and Gomorrah was the sin of mistreating guests.

Thanks again for the opportunity to share a good example of why Christians need to learn more about context and exegesis.

The reason Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed was they reached a place in their sinfulness that God had no other choice except to destroy them. They became reprobate and there was no Hope for them. Yes the sin they started out with was the sin of not being hospitable and not taking care of the widows and orphans. It was a sin of selfishness and greed which started them out on their downward spiral of sin, which ended up in homosexuality and all types of perversion. When you start to break Gods law you separate yourself from Him, and the end is always death. Yes at any time you can repent and turn back to God but we never know when we will become reprobate and be unreachable.

Don Pauling,
Your right about the fact that there was much more sin of various nature. But somehow God saw fit to include in the scripture a subject (NOT thier unhopitality)of offense that is one of the reasons why it was unsafe.Thus the revelancy in the context of ..my.. point.

When the two angels of God came, Lot's house was surrounded By men (from all quarters of the ciy) who wanted to show thier unhospitableness by telling God's messangers that they were not invited into thier homes.

Lot did not let them in. Yet he was saved.
I did not "buy into" a "surface reason" the truth is free.
We run the risk of being reprobate when we are surrounded by such a vile environment AND INVITE IT IN TO OUR HOMES. Bro Dave

There is enough scripture to support two very different approaches of evangelism. What has to be identified in scripture is when God is speaking to His chosen people or speaking of the wicked.
His warnings apply to both.
Using the text of scripture to apply God's direction in current matters carries the risk of bias construction without the Holy Spirits lead. Correctly dividing the word of truth is not purely an academic process.The Holy Spirit was given to us to teach, comfort and guide us in this ever changing world of Godlesness.
Idolitry is indeed the greatest enemy challenging God's people.
The concern for the apperance of evil by possibly participating was another " surface reason" for the purpose of Pauls address regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols.
Eating meat sacrificed to idols was not the spiritual lesson in Paul's adress to a matter. Rather it's about if what we allow is an offence to the weaker, then refrain from participation or practice and keep it between you and God ( for God's glory, not your own,likend to fasting ) for the sake of the weak.
I watched the movie Fire Proof and thought it was great. It did not contain anything graphically offensive and yet still able to communicate the subject..... effectivly.
I don't believe that a political approach would acheive any more ground in riding the planet of this infectious idolatry As I have stated before It's going to get worse. That should help clarify the goal off evangelism in this direction.

If XXX church has been given any gifts or special measure of grace to do what they are doing, that's not for me to judge. However, they have to acknowledge the weak and REMOVE ALL THE VISUALLY OFFENSIVE CONTENTS ON THEIR WEBSIGHTS AND OTHER ADVERTISEMENTS !! AND CHANGE THE HEADING ON THIS BLOG SO IT DOES"NT APPEAR THAT YOUR IN JUDGMENT SAYING SOMEONE IS "FROM HELL" !! bro Dave

Luke 9:

Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.

Donny,

God is going to reign down fire. It is our job to warn of the wrath to come, not take vengeance or hurt anyone. We are trying to show them where they stand with a very Holy God. The vengeance is His, not ours.

Vera

Saved Panther

We need to let our love light that comes from God shine.

It is not love to pamper someone in their sin and try to soothe their aching conscience. That is pure hatred. God is trying to use that pain to get them to repent. When you make them feel sorry for themselves, you undermine what God is doing and they ultimately fail to take responsibility for their actions. The only thing that will relieve their pain is repentance and a new clean heart WHICH DOESN'T COST $100!! Deliverance DOESN'T COST $100!! Jesus and the apostles did plenty of rebuking and not of Godly people that are trying to lead folks to repentance. It was covetous wicked evil sinners (not Pharisees or religious folk) who had defiled His temple.

Think of it this way. You have a sweet cherub-like toddler who is at the beach with you. You want that child to get out of the water because she can't swim. She's starting to venture out into the water. Any decent parent will absolutely walk or run over and give her a little spank for the purpose of a warning about any future incidences. You want your precious daughter that you love so dearly to obey because it would break your heart if something tragic happened because the child had an accident AND THE TWO OF YOU ARE SEPARATED FOREVER.

It is not God's will that any should perish. He feels the same about being separated from one of us FOREVER. It breaks His heart. So He puts these little things into their lives to "encourage" them to repent. He sends people to rebuke and give them the fear of the Lord. But others need compassion. Come unto me all ye that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.

If you feel sorry for them, it is like handing the prodigal a turkey dinner in the pigsty. That pigsty was God's means of getting him to "come to his senses." He came home to the Father as a result.

If those people do not repent, it won't be the sin of pornography in hell's fire tormented and burning and separated from Him FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER>>>>>AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER>>>>>>>>>>>>. It's going to be them. Get it? That is what is going to happen to every last person that participates in that madness.

There is no urgency in you guys. But there surely is in us!

The Spirit of God is free to anyone who wants Him to come in!!! Jesus blood and the Holy Spirit will pardon you and set you free.

Vera

I must have missed the bloggers that were intending to call down fire from heaven to destroy what or whomever but I know God has plans on doing just so in the end, unto all who reject Him.
The gospel (good news) message, that JESUS preached before He was crucified .... Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is near.
The gospel after He was crucified ....
JESUS HAS RISEN ! and His kindom is establtshed forever.
SALVATION, repentance and forgivness of sin can be had.

Does JESUS love you ?
Yes he does.
Would He send you to Hell for rejecting Him?
Yes He will.
Is His love only offered after passing thru the open door marked repentance?
No.
Is there any who reject his love,which have walked thru that door?
No.
Is there any who reject his love,wich have not walked thru that door?
All.
JESUS loves you is a fact, not the gospel message of the great commision.

What I see happening with the Jesus loves you only message is a "no offence" or "don't fear the Lord" approach, wich is what the world is currently working on with it's diversification and tolerance agenda for one world unity. Eventually there will be a "hate crime" law that would make it illegal to say that something is a sin and there is only one way to get to heaven etc..
JESUS said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. One that would SEPERATE His chosen from the world. And the sword is His word by wich His Spirit moves through, circumsizing our hearts unto the new covenant.
JESUS love is an action not just a statement.
The fear of the lord and His judgments, is why we move with acts of love, like mercy, compassion ..and.. warnings.
No consequence, no fear. No fear, no need to obey. Bro. Dave :)

That is very good Dave, I agree with you. doug

I don't want to leave the impression that fear is a "tool of design" for evangelism. It is however an unavoidable disposition of anyone in the world still dead in thier sins, that ..eternity.. in hell is something to avoid at any cost and we should... fear the one that could send us there.
I could not imagine not mentioning this with any less passion than JESUS did, while leading someone to Him (with the clock ticking as it is).
And with better perspective regarding the accusers of the brethren; the pharisee's did not have the HOLY SPIRIT and were indeed, trying to... kill ...JESUS !
Just in case someone wants to make further... judgments ...by comparing ...any... to the pharisee's. bro. Dave

Seeing the street "preacher" taunt, not preach, to Craig and others reminds me of what C.S. Lewis wrote in "Mere Christianity" about a "cold, self-righteous prig who regularly goes to church may be far nearer hell than a prostitute."

Mitt,
The message of the Gospel is to be pardoned AND set free from sin. There is no self-righteousness in that message because we realize that apart from Jesus Christ and His Spirit, we can do nothing. We live in an imperfect world but we have a righteousness that is by faith. If you continue in sin, according to Scripture, you will not inherit the kingdom. There is no self-righteousness in that message. It is what God says, not us.
Vera

Mitt, are you saying that you think that taunting is a sin and compared to prostitution it is a worse sin,worthy of eternal seperation from God the creator of all. I like most of CS Lewis writing but I don't think it's fair to apply an excerpt crafted as a passive judgment.
If we all were to be video taped everyday of our lives ,I wonder what part of any imperfection would be the one that registers to be worthy of a sentence to hell for eternity, by God Himself, and not a commentary author of any stature.If you think that... said "taunting" is a greater sin, then I suggest that you pull something else out of your heart that would help to restore one whom YOU think is guilty of such. That way you would actually be...... helping.
Bro. Dave

Keep givin love guys! Awesome.....

I know The Lord Jesus loves sinners which are still people my bible tells me that in 1 John 4:16 and in John 17 the famous prayer of Jesus
John 17: 21-23
I will show you John 17:23 in the (Amplified Bible) and this is a translation that is true to the Hebrew and Greek language so those people who say the kjv is the only translation they have not study up enough.

John 17:23 (Amplified Bible)
23I in them and You in Me, in order that they may become one and perfectly united, that the world may know and [definitely] recognize that You sent Me and that You have loved them [even] as You have loved Me.

1 John 4:16 (Amplified Bible)
16And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.

and if you want verses for religious people who think they are pleasing God by what they are doing read Matthew 23 in the message or what ever translation I use to be a religious person so I know the mind set, religious people can even be born again or whatever Just not motivated by love like it says in 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13:2 (Amplified Bible)
2And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God's love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).

see you can have faith but faith works by love or for you kjv lovers faith workith by love
God bless
I got what I know from http://www.christiancentre.ca

christiancentre.ca
read about Jesus
God bless
jimyouarejim
Jesus is Lord
Jonathan Rittinger

God loves useless nobody's.

It is sad to see Christians fighting Christians, when they are supposed to be brethren. I used to be a Christian, so I remember all the arguing and self-righteousness. I also remember people like Craig and xxxchurch, who are reaching people with love and kindness.

Please remember, we can see the difference between hatred and compassion. The message is only as good as the face of the messenger.
John